CHUD LIST: You Got It All Wrong!

[Nick Nunziata]

Begins!

[Nick Nunziata]

http://chud.com/articles/articles/14...ONE/Page1.html

[Jakespeare]

Great idea for a list, this'll be interesting to say the least.

[Moltisanti]

0-1

[Jakespeare]

Is this an entry a day list or an entry a week?

[James May]

All right, so far I love the premise of this new list. Pushing film discussion the hard way now, are we?

Silence of the Lambs honestly is a film I never spent too much time critically analyzing. I do not, however, agree that it is a bland film. The look and tone of the film fit the ugly, fetid, lurid tone of the material. While I find many of the aspects of the story to be a bit far-fetched, the film is delivered in a way that works to sell it well enough.

If anything I like living in a world where a horror film was best picture, for what thats worth.

[Nick Nunziata]

MON-FRI, one a day.

[Jakespeare]

Excellent.

[Mr. Gittes]

Personally I've always felt that Hopkins was almost...cartoonish, I guess, in the role compared to what Brian Cox gave us in Manhunter which I also consider to be a much more engrossing movie overall. Though that could just be my Michael Mann bias talking.

[Greg David]

Gotta side with Jeremy. This is a perfectly-pitched piece of entertainment that knows exactly what it's doing every step of the way. Just because some wrong-headed sorts decided that it's higher-brow art than it really is doesn't diminish its actual accomplishment. It's one of the all-time great horror films, despite non-horror fans' attempts to avoid classifying it as such. It isn't ashamed of what it is. Nobody who enjoys it should be either.

[Dean Stockwell]

I still love this film. It's latched deep into my childhood. And I still think Hopkins gave a perfect performance. Some parts were indeed quite corny. Everything about the last 15 minutes were great, though.


DEEP INSIGHT!

[Gabe Powers]

Can't wait for Fight Club. Maybe Sin City? Scarface? These are my only guesses I can gather from my own collection.

[Jakespeare]

Lord of the Rings?

[Mr. Gittes]

I'm hoping for Equilibrium, personally.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Greg David

Gotta side with Jeremy. This is a perfectly-pitched piece of entertainment that knows exactly what it's doing every step of the way. Just because some wrong-headed sorts decided that it's higher-brow art than it really is doesn't diminish its actual accomplishment. It's one of the all-time great horror films, despite non-horror fans' attempts to avoid classifying it as such. It isn't ashamed of what it is. Nobody who enjoys it should be either.

This times 2.

[Patrick Ripoll]

Gotta side with Nick on this one.

[weakfingers]

taking into account the given Chud definition of "overblown", i'll go with this first pick. i saw Silence Of The Lambs last halloween for the first time in years and was kind of underwhelmed by what i had remembered as something that really rose above genre conventions into a bonafide classic by any standard. the psychological aspect wasn't near as taut as i had recalled, and in the end, to use jeremy's words, it really is a glorified B-movie. not that i'm complaining. between nick's insistence that Silence has sort of become the one-stop-shopping pick for procedural/thriller/psychological madness, and jeremy's statement regarding it as "expertly crafted Hollywood entertainment", the movie is summed up. it's a good flick, but it doesn't deserve the status carelessly heaped on it.

i'm going to love seeing what comes up on this list for sure. kudos once again to all you guys for dreaming this thing up. even on a site like this, cinephiles need their knuckles rapped every once in a while.

[OCallaghan]

I Heart Jeremy.

[Dan]

You've probably made several geeks cry, Nick. Hope you're happy!

[Justin Clark]

If anything, I give Nick credit for pointing out the uberhate some people throw at Hannibal and Red Dragon as the misguided thing it is. Ultimately, though, Jeremy wins this round.

There's a lot of procedurals, thrillers, and brilliant madness in film history, yeah. It's still one of the better ones, and a lot of that is due to Demme keeping his film on as taut a leash as he can, knowing when to and when not to go for broke with the more outrageous moments of the novel. And being able to rein Thomas Harris' bullshit in at times is what raises it above, say, Manhunter.

I know for a fact Fight Club's in here somewhere. I can't fucking wait for that shitstorm.

[LisaNY]

Originally Posted by Greg David

Gotta side with Jeremy. This is a perfectly-pitched piece of entertainment that knows exactly what it's doing every step of the way. Just because some wrong-headed sorts decided that it's higher-brow art than it really is doesn't diminish its actual accomplishment. It's one of the all-time great horror films, despite non-horror fans' attempts to avoid classifying it as such. It isn't ashamed of what it is. Nobody who enjoys it should be either.

Originally Posted by Jake

This times 2.

Times three. I do love this idea for a list, and I'm looking forward to more of them. But this movie still completely works for me. For example, one of the scariest Buffalo Bill moments is when he runs back to his bedroom to get the gun when Clarice shows up, and you notice that he has this home-made, americana-style patchwork quilt on his bed made up of rows and rows of swastikas. I can see where parts of the movie are overblown, but it's little sick, scary things like that which stayed with me.

[Gabriel Williams]

1) Maybe people's opinion would be different if Hopkins had stopped with this performance, instead of portraying the character three more times to increasing degrees of assrape.

2) Jodie Foster's portrayal of Clarice Starling doesn't get enough love. She balances ambition and vulnerability with perfect pitch throughout this film.

3) "Pantheon of penis-tucking thespians" = genius.

[Dross]

I think Demme's direction is actually what makes the film work as well as it does. All those shots of the characters speaking/looking directly into the camera really, really work, especially with Lecter. You feel he's talking to you, which makes it that much creepier. Not the most sophisticated camera trick, but it works like a charm. In the hands of a lesser talent, this film could've been something as forgettable as Single White Female or The Bone Collector.

EDIT: But I do agree that Seven is a much better film.

[Tati]

Nick makes very valid points, but as a whole, i side with Jeremy.

[stelios]

I agree that the overuse and subsequent downward spiral of Lecter's character has diminished Hopkins' performance in Silence Of The Lambs. And as a "serial killer movie" I think Seven is more effective. But I also think that it hit so many notes just right, mainly in the chemistry between Lecter and Starling the absence of which is the main gripe I have with Hannibal, that singling it out as overrated seems excessive.

Maybe you should make a new category. Kind of overrated.

[Rich Straceski]

I lean a bit more towards the Jeremy side of things on this one. Silence of the Lambs is a pretty damn good movie that made a big splash. It's a movie that I find endlessly entertaining probably not so much becasue of the way it was directed and shot but more because of the cast and how well they handle their roles. For me, this movie is always a good time.

This is gonna be a great list and the discussion is going to be priceless at times I'm sure. World War Geek, here we come!

edit: I own three copies of this movie on DVD. I have the original that came in a snapper case, I have the Criterion Edition, and then I have aspecial Edition MGM put out once they had the rights to it... and I still have all three. That may be somewhat sad, but it doesn't bother me at all.

[Chris Anthony]

Doesn't this break the CHUD rule of "No 'Everyone Loves this Film, but I hate It'" threads?

[BobClark]

Beaks is the refreshing voice of reason. A thoroughly illconceived first choice.

[C.Swicegood]

Originally Posted by Greg David

Gotta side with Jeremy. This is a perfectly-pitched piece of entertainment that knows exactly what it's doing every step of the way. Just because some wrong-headed sorts decided that it's higher-brow art than it really is doesn't diminish its actual accomplishment. It's one of the all-time great horror films, despite non-horror fans' attempts to avoid classifying it as such. It isn't ashamed of what it is. Nobody who enjoys it should be either.

Greg stole my thoughts. There are some issues that stand out, and none of them are due to Anthony Hopkins, he obviously undertood the role and played it appropriately over the top (not too much to malign it). If any finger of blame needs to be placed its on Fosters quasi "aw shucks" portrayal of Starling, and that's a slight nitpick at that.

Originally Posted by Chris Anthony

Doesn't this break the CHUD rule of "No 'Everyone Loves this Film, but I hate It'" threads?

Yep

[JonStrickland]

I side with Nick on this one. In fact, I had a similar discussion a few weeks ago about Silence and made similar arguments. I don't think it's a bad film, but I do think it's a bit overrated.

[R A Smith]

I'll agree with Beaks as well. It's a well-reviewed and commercial success, which does not happen often enough with box-office smashes. Are there better movies out there from a critical standpoint? Sure, but I believe there are not a ton of people claiming this movie is the benchmark for horror/psychological procedural drama. Not nearly overblown, just right.

[Supremo]

Crazy. After sitting through the interminable Repo Man over the weekend, I almost started a message board thread about Undeserving Cult Classics. Looks like I didn't have to bother. I can't wait to see what else is on this list.

[BobClark]

Originally Posted by Supremo

the interminable Repo Man

It was the 80's. You had to be there.
I think Repo Man gets it's cult status grandfathered in. It was a great alternative back in the day. But it just doesn't make the cut today. Doesn't mean it's inherently bad, just a product of it's era.

[billylove]

Overblown, probably. If only for the fact that Hopkin's character is watered down, one that should have been more gruesome and visceral. Too much talky, talky for my tastes. I give the award of best serial killer to Henry, a film despite my best interests, I couldn't watch twice.

I would side between Nick and Russ.


Also, I hate to say this again, but you can't put weight on it's sequels, when judging this movie, unless it was a "planned" grouping, aka Lord of the Rings. Just don't do that.

[Phil]

Cross this choice with Devin's "Do movies have to hold up to repeat viewings?" debate and you might have a discussion. Three more Hannibal films, one Billy Crystal Oscar gig, and a zillion fava bean jokes later, sure, it loses some of its kick. But in February 1991, this film came out of nowhere and knocked a lot of us on our asses. Screw the rosy-cheeked MGM special edition - track down the yellowed, soured Americana, Tak Fujimoto-approved transfer from Criterion.

And how the fuck is Badlands any kind of alternative to this? You got it all wrong, day one.

[Kevin Matchstick]

I think it's a great Women in the Workplace flick - which sounds a little ridiculous typing out, but I'll stand by it. What makes the movie for me - other than it's just a beautifully constructed movie - is Foster's performance and the character of Clarice Starling. I always think of that scene where Clarice goes to that small town to view the body of the woman that's found. And she's in that room with all of those cops getting the What the Fuck eye. Anyway, what's weakened the movie, perhaps, is the movies it inspired like Kiss the Girls or any James Patterson adaptation. I wish Foster had returned for Hannibal, which I think is also a great flick - just not as rich as Silence. But I can see why she didn't. The strengths of Clarice are not on display in Hannibal. Though, maybe more so than in the book - the script having been re-written to try to get Foster aboard.

Oh, and I like the lambs conversation.

[Keith F]

I would almost take offense at the notion that Demme directed this thing in a pedestrian manner, if I took offense at such things. All I know, is no matter how many times I watch it, I nearly shit my pants at the final, ultra suspenseful Clarice through nightvision stalking.

I've heard other carping about this movie lately, about how it's really not that greusome, as if that is a requirement, but I submit the face/off scene.

The character beats in this thing are nearly perfect, from Clarice's first meeting with Crawford up until Lecter's final telephone goodbye.

I love Manhunter for all it's Michael Mann glory, but this is the infinitely better movie. Just brimming with suspense and one of the strongest senses of dread ever established in film history. Sure, nothing wrong with turning people onto M or The Vanishing, or any other great killer movie, though.

To sort of echo something Phil and Matchstick said, the Lecter performance has been dilluted by years of parody, and even self parody as is the case of Red Dragon. But that first time in the theater, seeing Lecter staring at you for the first time, it was something special. And remains something special, no matter how many shitty comedy bits have been mined from it.

I said it in the talkback, and it maybe a stupid argument, but I still believe Seven is one Brad Pitt suicide from being a masterpiece, and not just a really good serial killer exercise.

EDIT: Sure, the penis tuck is the heart of the movie, but I also love the "Oh wait, is she a great big fat person" line from Levine. Gets me every time.

[bendrix]

I think the dissenting opinion feature is a really nice touch which leavens any vitriol created as a result of bruised egos. What will be interesting is when a beloved geek film is tackled or if none of the CHUD writers disagree with the main opinion.

Lambs is an interesting first choice, if only because I don't have any really strong attachment to the film. I initially said a little "fuck, yeah" to myself when I saw it was getting the treatment, but Jeremy turned me around a bit--if not 180 degrees, a very respectable 100 degrees.

It's obvious you all put a lot of thought into this, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

[Ratty]

Love the movie, but I love Manhunter just as much if not a smidge more. I do agree with whomever said that 17 years of Lambs parodies may sully the film's memory a bit, not to mention bullshit like Ratner's Red Dragon. Still, it's a damn fine movie. Not overrated.

Manhunter , however, is still underrated, and it went to the Harris well first.

[leeVSbenway]

Hopkins' portrayal of Lecter in the original SOTL is the greatest performance Anthony Perkins never gave. I don't have any particular love for the film, but this was a very poor start to the new list. You are going to have to try harder.

[nekkerbee]

Bold first choice! Gotta give Nick props for that, even if he is woefully wrong in his analysis. But if everyone agreed on everything it would be a really fucking boring world.

Originally Posted by Chris Anthony

Doesn't this break the CHUD rule of "No 'Everyone Loves this Film, but I hate It'" threads?

No, Nick says it's a very good film, just overrated. He doesn't hate it at all.

[Saint G]

It really is unfortunate for Silence that Lector became played out (from the parodies to the sequels). He has lost that something special that watching Silence for the first time revealed. The movie is still great, but for many that may have passed with Lector going into the old joke bin.

[Keith F]

The constant showings on channels like Bravo don't help, either. You cut out the tuck, you turn "I would fuck me so hard" to "I would date me so hard" you lose the impact.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Ratty

Manhunter , however, is still underrated, and it went to the Harris well first.

What, no 'Black Sunday' love?
Mind you, I expect that from 'the kids' who haven't watched anything pre 1980.

[EdHocken]

Out of all the four, Manhunter was the best and it had a different ending than Red Dragon and that was because the ending of Red Dragon was pretty much a straight up tv-movie thriller ending.

I never understood the facination with Thomas Harris, there are far better crime and thriller writters out there.

I will say this is one of those movies that cements a song with a certain scene. Forever and ever "Goodbye Horses" will always be connected with Ted Levine wanting to be fucked...by himself.

[billylove]

Best parody to come out of Lambs.

Joe Dirt, Buffalo Bobs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdT7Vpc0uho

[Clarence Boddicker]

I'll agree that the direction is somewhat bland, but everything else is great. However, I do think JFK should have gotten the Oscar that year.

[EdHocken]

Had Lambs not been out that year, JFK would've won, but I've stopped giving a shit about Oscars years ago so it doesn't really mean anything to me.

--Edited for grammar, Christ I really need to proofread--

[Graham]

Originally Posted by EdHocken

Had Lambs not been out that year, JFK would've won, but I'm stopped giving a shit about Oscars years ago so it doesn't really mean anything to me.

Funny, that's the way I feel about 'JFK'.

[EdHocken]

Exactly and for that matter I have yet to get thru JFK completely. Even though I have to realize it's not meant to be as "THE" way JFK got shot but more of an examination of paranoia and intrigue of one man. (Even though others may say otherwise)