A.V. Club's Best of the Decade: The Best TV series of the ’00s

[Jason Pollock]

Originally Posted by Sean Bateman

Spaced aired in 1999.

Originally Posted by Jason Pollock

There were two seasons. The first aired in 1999, and the second began in 2001. By the shotty rationale the list was assembled with (many of the shows began in '99, and Buffy started in '97 - so it would appear that, so long as there were first-run episodes broadcast in 2000, a series is considered eligible) - Spaced counts.

I'd ask if anyone here actually reads anything anyone else writes anymore, but since everyone just insulted a guy for typing something that wasn't simply "WIN" or "FAIL"...why bother?

Oddly enough, I've read lengthy dissertations on films of suspect merits on this site (and others) since the dawn of the internet. Devin - you wrote what amounted to a exhaustive (by your own admission) academic paper on enema porn (which was an interesting read, by the way) but you rip on this guy for his outlandish and verbose exploration of the (supposed) thematic elements of Tim and Eric?

I don't agree with the guy (I think the show is often funny, but it's mostly weirdness for weirdness' sake) - but I gotta' ask why we as a community would want to chase someone away who's willing to reach a little bit? Dre reaches. Devin reaches. It's why their work is impressive. Why not give a guy a bit of a break?

[Jcassady]

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes

I know it made the best episodes list, but Scrubs really should have made the list.

Seasons 6 and 7 (especially 7 which Bill Lawrence all but admitted he mailed in to spite NBC), left a horrible taste in people's mouths.

Jason, as for shouting down long posts, Policar's initial post was 1500 words, 1300 more words than necessary. Most people here have no problem with reading longer post. The community just has no patience for rambling (except for those who enjoy Dellamorte's column. Andre has made using 75 words when 10 would suffice into a bizarre artform).

[Policar]

If I'm going to make a point that (apparently) no one agrees with, I have to back it up with evidence. I could have explained the gist of what I meant in 200 words, but without citing examples, it would have been meaningless. As it stands, it's a relatively watertight argument--except perhaps to the extent that I assumed a Brechtian impulse in the case of what might simply be traditional comic distance taken to greater extremes.

I'll try to keep it more concise from now on, though. The Future Shock stuff was digression. And while it's fine if people disagree (I mean, obviously mine isn't the most typical reading of the show), I find it interesting that no one has offered evidence to the contrary except for "I don't really think so." The show obviously draws on Lynchian aesthetics and reflexive gags; the show obviously parodies corporate excess and the disintegration of the traditional family structure. Why is it so irritating for you to read an hypothesis as to why?

[RathBandu]

There were a couple of theories as to why Spaced wasn't on the list thrown out, and nobody bothered to counter.

[DaveB]

Originally Posted by RathBandu

There were a couple of theories as to why Spaced wasn't on the list thrown out, and nobody bothered to counter.

It might just be as as simple as "the AV Club forgot about it/got the dates wrong." Just about anyone who's seen it would probably agree that it deserves to be on the list, quality-wise. I'd put it in the top ten, easily.

[Richard Dickson]

Or it could be "the AV Club isnt as big a fan of Spaced as some are".

[Schwartz]

Other likely contributing factors:

Not American
Short run, only half airing in the decade
Not as inclusive with its references/in jokes to the non-geek crowd

I know none of these disqualify it outright, but I could see them combining to nudge it out of 30. It should've been in Eastbound's place, if you ask me. It's funny, but not Great great, and it kind of felt like it got put there partly on the strength of Hill's film work. In any case, it should've been on the "miniseries" list.

Am I the only one who thinks that if this list had been made 6 weeks later, Sons of Anarchy would've made the cut?

[Aaron Abolt]

Originally Posted by Jason Pollock

I don't agree with the guy (I think the show is often funny, but it's mostly weirdness for weirdness' sake) - but I gotta' ask why we as a community would want to chase someone away who's willing to reach a little bit? Dre reaches. Devin reaches. It's why their work is impressive. Why not give a guy a bit of a break?

I completely agree with you on this. Sure, it reeks of self-importance and arrogance when you put up a post of that length (or like 5 posts that length), but I don't know why everyone wants to crucify him for trying to look at the show critically.

I do understand people who claim that the show most likely doesn't intend for those messages to be there, but that's kind of irrelevant. Generally, academics nowadays aren't concerned at all with authorial intent (not saying that his post was on the level of a truly legitimate academic. But it's a message board). They look at the text (movie, tv show, whatever) and they examine what they see in it. If they can make up an argument based on what they see, then that's enough . And meanings and messages show up in stuff even if the people who made it never intended for that to happen.

[Bucho]

Originally Posted by Aaron Abolt

I completely agree with you on this. Sure, it reeks of self-importance and arrogance when you put up a post of that length (or like 5 posts that length), but I don't know why everyone wants to crucify him for trying to look at the show critically.

I have no problem with it either. Self-importance and arrogance? Yeah, he can be wordy as fuck but the main trait I see in that is passion (for both the subject and the language). And to be fair, the posters who engaged with Policar in opposition might have been dismissive but most of them weren't smuggly so, I think "everyone wanting to crucify him" is a little dramatic.

[Brechtsky]

policar-- sorry I don't like tim and eric at all, but these people are still a bunch of morons. Im sure you put a lot of time and thought into that, only to have people criticize you for it.

Truth is, its only because devin insulted you (as he unnecessarily does to someone with nearly every post), so the rest of the lemmings hopped on board.... forget that this is a forum for discussion-- you simply have to much to say!

Ive honestly never seen a group of people online more mindlessly follow such a huge asshole with no tangible tastes but elitism.

[Andre Dellamorte]

A message board is a place for people to communicate with each other in a conversational manner.

[Brechtsky]

Originally Posted by Bucho

And to be fair, the posters who engaged with Policar in opposition might have been dismissive but most of them weren't smuggly so, I think "everyone wanting to crucify him" is a little dramatic.

no it really isnt.

[Bucho]

Originally Posted by Brechtsky

no it really isnt.

Please. "Crucify" on its own is too dramatic, at worst he was met with smugly patronising dismissals from a couple of people, fair disagreements from most. Put it with "everyone" in front and it's unquestionably an exaggeration. And I didn't mean to bust Aaron's balls over it, just to keep things in perspective.

[Jonathan Banks is my hero]

Originally Posted by Aaron Abolt

I completely agree with you on this. Sure, it reeks of self-importance and arrogance when you put up a post of that length (or like 5 posts that length), but I don't know why everyone wants to crucify him for trying to look at the show critically.

I do understand people who claim that the show most likely doesn't intend for those messages to be there, but that's kind of irrelevant. Generally, academics nowadays aren't concerned at all with authorial intent (not saying that his post was on the level of a truly legitimate academic. But it's a message board). They look at the text (movie, tv show, whatever) and they examine what they see in it. If they can make up an argument based on what they see, then that's enough . And meanings and messages show up in stuff even if the people who made it never intended for that to happen.

Not to bust your balls, but for someone who's defending a poster's right to go on ad naueam on an analytical diatribe, this is funny because it implies that even you didn't take the time to read the whole thing. I can't speak for anyone else who ragged on Policar in this thread, but the point has been made at least once here that the issue wasn't the length of the thing necessarily, or even the attempt to be critical. I totally agree that unintended deeper meanings may abound in even the simplest texts, and it can be worthwhile fodder for critical discussion or analysis. But that's not really the case here. That post reeks of a presumption of authorial intent. Maybe that's just a byproduct of the way it was written. But then, that was sort of the point of the reaction.

In either case, whether a post is poorly argued or poorly written, you'll take some ribbing for it here. Some agree, some don't. Some make jokes, others get sensitive and mount a defense. Message board WHAT!

[Sean Bateman]

Policar is unfortunately on an eternal shitlist for his "margin of safety" analysis of FOOT FIST WAY and the work of Jody Hill. You just can't come back from that. It's the film nerd version of someone rooting for a rival sports team.

[Cameron Hughes]

Originally Posted by Jcassady

Seasons 6 and 7 (especially 7 which Bill Lawrence all but admitted he mailed in to spite NBC), left a horrible taste in people's mouths.

Jason, as for shouting down long posts, Policar's initial post was 1500 words, 1300 more words than necessary. Most people here have no problem with reading longer post. The community just has no patience for rambling (except for those who enjoy Dellamorte's column. Andre has made using 75 words when 10 would suffice into a bizarre artform).

6 and 7 had bright spots(The musical), but the strength of 1-5 and 8 make a strong case that it deserved to be on there. It was funnier than a lot of comedies of this decade and more effectively dramatic than some drama's.

[Jcassady]

Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes

6 and 7 had bright spots(The musical), but the strength of 1-5 and 8 make a strong case that it deserved to be on there. It was funnier than a lot of comedies of this decade and more effectively dramatic than some drama's.

Agreed. I think there is an argument to be made that it should be on there, but those two seasons were needlessly bad (with the exception of the Musical, which only demonstrated that Lawrence and Braff really were fucking with NBC).

[Ryan S~]

Originally Posted by Brechtsky

no it really isnt.

Yeah, it really is. I asked a few clarifying questions. He answered promptly and politely. I do think Policar is reading way too much in to it but I have nothing that can counter it because I know very little about the show other than what I've seen online. Nor do I really care to counter it. I just wanted some clarifications on his post.

Was it a little too much for a message board conversation? Maybe but he's bringing it from a place of interest and passion.

[Policar]

Seriously thanks very much to those who defended me; I've met with similar (though less extreme) reactions in the past, though, so it's not as if I went into this totally innocent of consequences. That said, the "Woody Allen guy"/"comic book guy" type comments seem unduly mean and kind of just weird--but this is the internet, so whatever. Of course I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with what I wrote, though, and I appreciate when someone takes the time to read and consider it.

I'll also own up to thinking that Tim and Eric are mostly aware of what they're doing. I don't think their thought process is along the lines of "let's mash up Brecht and Lynch to criticize corporate culture" or anything nearly as convoluted as what I've outlined, but the show is too structured and self-aware to be created purely intuitively. And, really, there's no way Lynch isn't a major influence on that show. And while I don't know if Tim and Eric ascribe to the conservative morals the show often exhibits, it's clear to me that their didacticism is intentional, even if only so they can uncomfortably juxtapose it against completely disgusting subject matter. Admittedly, there are plenty of skits that are likely "just weird" and maybe barely relevant to the show's broader themes and aesthetics, but I also think there's a remarkable cohesiveness to that show, which is part of what elevates it way, way above something like Robot Chicken.