Not getting the Michael Jackson love

[DaveB]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

But now he's dead, and we can leave all that to the historians and sociologists. Nothing will burnish a career, while forgiving it's failings, like a pre-mature death. In the cultural landscape today, Michael Jackson is moonwalking, hopscotching across an illuminated sidewalk, traveling through space and just generally killing it (my apologies) with his superhuman skills. Everything that followed is diminished and ultimately rendered irrelevant. I'm not saying that this is right, or admirable, but it is reasonable. Popular culture has reclaimed Michael Jackson as he once was, before the megalomania and rumours and lawsuits: he was once the most talented man in the world.* This is why we put young Elvis on the stamp instead of old Elvis, it's why Marilyn Monroe is damn near a Jungian icon of sexuality and desire despite being drugged up and used by the end, and it's why Heath Ledger won an Oscar (no disrespect, as they say). Jackson's case is unique in that he ascended higher than anyone else (Elvis comes close, but he's not global on the scale Jackson was), and he fell further. Now that he's gone, it's as if all that weight bearing his cultural holographic imagery into the depths of mockery and disgust has been jettisoned.

I wonder whether it's the fact that his death is premature or just the sheer magnitude of his early popularity that's allowing many to momentarily overlook the oddities (and perhaps moral failings) of his later years. All things considered, his death, like Elvis's, was premature in terms of human life spans, but not in terms of iconic impact. Jackson was at least 15 years past his sell-by date for most of us (more for many of us), so it's not as if he was cut down in his prime.

If he'd lived to 80, I think we'd be similarly inclined to momentarily forgive him his weirdness and sketchy relationship with children, although you'd have a younger generation much less familiar with him at his prime.

This doesn't excuse him, if the allegations against him are true. In that case he is a monster; a sick and needing monster, but a monster nonetheless. In the shadows there will always be a shadow of Jackson as Grendel, the warped offspring of a lustful parent (although in this abstraction, the parent is played by a celebrity-stricken society). His physical transformation only serves to highlight this disjunction. Perversely, this dynamic acts to heighten the cultural and popular response to Jackson as he was, as opposed to as he became. Dig too deep into his tragic narrative and this same cultural/popular framework begins to appear deeply corrupt, destructive and ultimately empty.

But society is a funny thing, and perception becomes reality. He is now idealized in the hopes that the darker meanings of his downward spiral can be simply replaced, with the notion a young kid defying physics through sheer will and imposing his talent on a world that desperately wanted it.

While he's hardly on the same level as Jackson fame-wise, I'll be curious to see how Phil Specter's musical legacy is treated when he dies. His trespasses were longer-lived and less ambiguous, his crimes proven, and he's quite a bit older than Jackson; but I bet it'll be hard to find a radio station not dipping into the Specter canon on that day.

Oddly enough, this is refreshing. In an age where we feel the need to know our celebrities on a personal level, when even those artists who once thrived on their dark and mysterious images have had their family lives laid bare on TV (hi, Ozzy), it seemed as though we might have forgetten how to evaluate the art (or cultural phenomenon) separately from the artist. I don't think the outpouring of affection for Jackson over the last few days represents cultural amnesia when it comes to his transgressions; I suspect that few praising him do so without reservations. Instead, they're rightfully embracing the iconography of his public persona and artistry of his work.

[RathBandu]

I think that what this whole thing comes down to is very simple, and that's the idea we've argued about so many times on these boards: Artist vs. Art. I think Dave's exactly right -- what you're seeing here isn't a white-washing of Jackson's personal life, but a collective choice to admire the work, rather than the artist himself. I've gotten into it a couple of times elsewhere with people who chose to argue that because Jackson was found not guilty, that means he's innocent, but for the most part, all the stuff that I've read has been a tacit acknowledgment of the oddness while fully embracing the music.

Which also is why Phil Spector's personal life doesn't stop me from making him one of my favorite "musicians" of all time. Although in Spector's case (and I guess you could talk about this with late-period/HIStory/Free Willy era Jackson, too), there are certain songs that take on a creepiness or uncomfortable subtext when considered within the artist's personal life. I know "He Hit Me" is anti-domestic abuse, but man oh man, that song.

[Andre Dellamorte]

I think the reason why Jackson gets more of a break than - say - Roman Polanski is two-fold. One is that he was way more popular, the second is that Michael Jackson's genius period doesn't happen during his heyday. MJ got old and weird. But he probably wasn't a kiddie toucher in 1982. And accepting that artists loved as gods fall hard is part of the cultural conscious.

[Louris]

I'm apparently in the minority here, so I'm gonna chalk it up to me simply not clicking with his solo stuff.

I also think that, like with Madonna, people often times have a tough time separating the music from the marketing (the perfect videos, the dancing, the iconic image of the glove, hat, moonwalk, red jacket, etc). I guess one could argue that they go hand in hand; after all, it's not like all those girls fainting at Beatles concerts were doing so because they lyrics to Love Me Do touched their very souls.

In the end, I'm going to be a hell of a lot more bummed by the eventual death of Paul Westerberg than I am Michael Jackson.

[Andre Dellamorte]

I'll be way more bummed by Lou Reed. So what? You asked why he was a big deal, and what was the big deal. Liking his shit is optional.

[Pop Zeus]

All this MJ love has me wanting to revive the old Michael Jackson vs. Prince rivalry. Listening to Purple Rain right now. Which one do I like more? Hmmm....

[DaveB]

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus

All this MJ love has me wanting to revive the old Michael Jackson vs. Prince rivalry. Listening to Purple Rain right now. Which one do I like more? Hmmm....

It's one of those rivalries that seems completely wrong-headed in retrospect. Jackson was always going for popular success and created his songs to maximize their broad appeal; Prince wanted to be popular, but would gladly shave off a portion of his audience in the interest of singing about whatever the hell he wanted to and including long album tracks that would never have a shot on the radio (among other things).

I'd go with Purple Rain in a second, but I can see why someone might be more of a Thriller fan.

[Pop Zeus]

Originally Posted by DaveB

It's one of those rivalries that seems completely wrong-headed in retrospect. Jackson was always going for popular success and created his songs to maximize their broad appeal; Prince wanted to be popular, but would gladly shave off a portion of his audience in the interest of singing about whatever the hell he wanted to and including long album tracks that would never have a shot on the radio (among other things).

I'd go with Purple Rain in a second, but I can see why someone might be more of a Thriller fan.

The only real reason why the comparison came up for me was because they both defined that unique mix of "late 70s/early 80s R&B mixed with rock" sound that became their respective signatures. But you're right that one seemed to be more interested in chasing after his own artistic muse while the other seemed more interested in making only the biggest album of all time.

[Fat Elvis]

DaveB. pretty much nails it.

For the record though, everytime they went head to head besides Thriller/ Purple Rain (Dirty Mind vs Off the Wall, Bad vs Sign O' The Times, Diamonds & Pearls vs Dangerous)--song for song, Prince came out on top.

Even in a dance off, it would be no easy victory for MJ. And Prince never lip synced.

(not sure if appropriate to factor in conquests and spoils of fame, but it's surprisingly close:

Diana Ross, Brooke Shields, Emmanuel Lewis< Vanity, Sheena Easton, The Bangels)

[Andre Dellamorte]

Michael Jackson is like D.W. Griffith to Prince's Murnau.

[felix]

Despite what happened to him in his later years, I've to admit that Michael's 80's work still holds up well even today.

Just by watching "Smooth Criminal" "Thriller" videos, you could tell that Michael was the real deal. He had a genuine energy and talent that could not be ignored.

[Fat Elvis]

Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte

Michael Jackson is like D.W. Griffith to Prince's Murnau.

You won't get that in Q!

How about Michael is Parliament to Prince's Funkadelic?

(With Rick James as the Ohio Players)

[Andre Dellamorte]

Jackson was a groundbreaker, but Prince was an artist. There's no denying what Jackson accomplished, but what he did is not as personal or as beautiful.

[Ray Abed]

Amazing:

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdail...reaks-records/

On the Pop Catalog chart, Jackson’s solo albums and Jackson 5 compilations locked up the top nine slots and 13 out of the Top 20. In the week prior to Jackson’s death, Thriller sold 277 copies; last week, the album sold 101,000 copies. As it was impossible for retailers to keep up with the demand for Jackson albums, buyers flocked to digital music services to load up on MJ, which catapulted Jackson to the top four spots of the Digital Album charts as well. “Man in the Mirror” was Jackson’s top-selling single last week, getting downloaded 146,000 times to come in third on the Top Digital Songs charts, ahead of “Billie Jean” and “Thriller.”

As for the Prince and MJ comparison, the breadth and variety of Prince's body of work speaks for itself. As a musician, Prince is pretty much in a league of his own composing and performing the majority of his music. MJ was an entertainer. Prince, like Andre said, is an artist.

Listening to MJ's albums chronologically, you can hear how he tried to fit in with the musical climate of the time. Prince has gone off and done his own thing no matter what the youth may be listening to.

There are very few musicians I'd compare Prince to, let alone MJ.

[Andre Dellamorte]

Or Scorsese to Lucas, etc.

[cheftournel]

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis

You won't get that in Q!

How about Michael is Parliament to Prince's Funkadelic?

(With Rick James as the Ohio Players)

More like Earth Wind and Fire to Prince's Parliament/Funkadelic.

[Richard Dickson]

Even if Michael Jackson isn't your thing, it's hard to look at this and deny his influence.

[Andre Dellamorte]

MJ did not lead to "Got to Give it up" by Aliyah or Slick Rick.

[Kim. Criminal]

Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte

MJ did not lead to "Got to Give it up" by Aliyah or Slick Rick.

Yeah, that picture is...a little sketchy. Maybe the person was in a Motown mindset or something, but there's no way you confuse Marvin with Michael.

Also, I've listened to some MJ related stuff every day since his passing. The songwriters and musicians on the early stuff were out of control. "I Am Love" is my new doo-wop-psych-funk-rock jam, especially when mixed with "The Life of the Party." Pure fi-YAH!

Oh yeah - in the Prince vs. MJ debate I'd always side w/Prince. He was sort of a reaction to the J5 pop juggernaut - not safe for everybody - which is probably why I gravitated to his music back in '82. Bad boys, you know...

[Andre Dellamorte]

I don't think you can listen to MJ's sexual songs and feel that he was the author in the same way you can with Prince, who obviously had his way through a number of beautiful women.

[Kim. Criminal]

Exactly. For me, back in the day, MJ was cute while Prince was sexy. Mike was like your cousin, Prince was your big sister's date that you hoped noticed you. The music refelected that "nice guy" image and made it difficult to believe he'd ever gone past first base. "Billie Jean" or "Darling Nikki" - which one probably happened (even though they are characters) to the respective artist?

[DaveB]

Originally Posted by Kim. Criminal

Exactly. For me, back in the day, MJ was cute while Prince was sexy. Mike was like your cousin, Prince was your big sister's date that you hoped noticed you. The music refelected that "nice guy" image and made it difficult to believe he'd ever gone past first base. "Billie Jean" or "Darling Nikki" - which one probably happened (even though they are characters) to the respective artist?

Both of those probably happened to Prince all the time.

[Andre Dellamorte]

Wish is why I wish I were him some days.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Pop Zeus

All this MJ love has me wanting to revive the old Michael Jackson vs. Prince rivalry.

Prince talks about meeting Michael

Best part:

Jackson showed up backstage at a couple Prince shows in 1984. The two icons, whose "Thriller" and "Purple Rain" defined the 1980s, never did work together. Later that decade, when both were recording at the same Los Angeles studio, Prince invited Jackson to play ping-pong. Michael, a star since age 8 who had lived a sheltered life, didn't know how.

"You want me to slam it?" Prince asked, according to engineer David Z, who was there." Michael drops his paddle and holds his hands up in front of his face so the ball won't hit him. Michael walks out with his bodyguard, and Prince starts strutting around like a rooster. 'Did you see that? He played like Helen Keller.'"

[MoonBaseNick]

Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte

I don't think you can listen to MJ's sexual songs and feel that he was the author in the same way you can with Prince, who obviously had his way through a number of beautiful women.

Oh I agree, I admit, I've had Prince playing in the background on plenty of Occasions. Jackson? Hell no.

[Diva]

I once read an interview with Carmen Electra where she said that she had to be at Prince's beck and call 24 hours a day. She would go to sleep with full hair and make up on so that if Prince showed up at 4 a.m. she'd be ready to go.

[Jake]

That ping-pong story is hilarious. I feel bad for laughing, of course, but my god.