Jesse James On Film

[Fat Elvis]

Seems like there's almost as many movies on Jesse James as Jesus Christ. Not heeding the Brady Bunch's famous warning, I watched The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid, The Long Riders, and The Assassination of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford back-to-back over last week. Anyone else ever done this? Plays almost Rashomon-like, or, throwing in Henry King's Jesse James, as secular gospels (with Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter apocrypha). Discrepancies and variety in the portraits, fascinating.

Duvall's take is my favorite. A hillbilly sociopath; weak, ignorant, & unhinged. He's jealous of Cole Younger, the true brains of the operation, and more than willing to take credit for the ideas of his betters. Contrast that with Pitt's potrayal of James- less natural born killer, more sensitive/damaged, angry rock star at the crossroads of burning out or fading away.

The Long Riders is my favorite of the films. Epic, mythic; it's Walter Hill at his most Peckinpah. The movie belongs to the Carradines, especially David, but James Keach is quite good as a subdued, nuanced Jesse. Not quite crazy or subservient as Duvall, nor a natural leader like Pitt-his performance shares that sense of a man haunted.

Your favorites?

Is there a favorite historical novel or bio to recommend?

*To my shame, I haven't seen Samuel Fuller's I Shot Jesse James (and I call myself a fan!), though its been recommended, and on my list for years. I do enjoy the tangibly related Return of Frank James, Fritz Lang's pseudo-sequel to King's Jesse James. Fonda is great.

[Tom Logan]

American Outlaws

Bar none the most historically accurate portrayal off the James / Younger Gang. The writers and directors went beyond the call of duty in their research. Colin Farrell plays James with a confidence swagger that likes to have fun charging at gatling guns. The film plays as if John Woo had tackled the mythology and put his little spin on it but alas (to my suprise) Les Mayfield the artist behind Blue Streak and Flubber was at the helm.
Of course, thats a load of bollocks but it seems to have six fans here and some guy here reckons this is the greatest action scene ever.

Really want to see The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid. I haven't seen Twisted which i hear was crap but I've been impressed with Philip Kaufman's other works, he's an interesting writer / director.

Of the Jesse James films that i've seen, i have to agree with you that The Long Riders is something special and certainly my favourite. I think it's Walter Hill's best, it's his most beautiful to look at and the gimmick of casting real brothers works and benefits the film.

[Zhukov]

I am by no means an expert, nor qualified whatsoever to discuss the expansive cinematic oeuvre of James' cinema you have presented.

Let me be the first here to say that The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford is one of my favorite films of all time, and Pitt's James is ultimately believable, reasonable, and compassionate. The way he accepts his fate, as the price that had to be paid (for reasons left uncertain) is just absolutely amazing. I know I am just a novice in this field, and can't add much, but goddamn that movie was so good I just need to say it. I guess we can't really argue it's place in the pantheon until a good bit more of time has passed (and even then, I wouldn't be in the conversation, as my experience is greatly limited), but for me, I can't imagine a movie topping this one in terms of sheer engagement. I love the ever-living hell out of this movie.

If Daniel Day Lewis hadnt been in the running, I would argue that Pitt was absolutely robbed of a seriously deserved statue. Casey Affleck and Sam Rockwell are gangbusters here (especially in the ratcheting tension of the climactic assassination), but Pitt's portrayal just struck me as foundationally aware. He's an outlaw who wants a regular, quiet life, but he knows his past will catch him. It's such a damnably cliche archetype, but he plays it off with such subtlety and grace that I feel it just needs to be recognize. Pitt's best performance, in my estimation, ever.

[Name_user]

How is American Outlaws more accurate than TAOJJ ?

[Evi]

He was joking.

[Ben Thomas]

I think he was joking...

[Ryan S~]

Useless trivia fact of the day: The first time Jesse James was portrayed on the big screen he was played by his son Jesse James Jr.

[Phil]

Anyone remember HBO's Frank and Jesse with Bill Paxton and Rob Lowe? No? Good.

[Mattioli]

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis

Is there a favorite historical novel or bio to recommend?

I recommend "The Assasination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford" by Ron Hansen. Seriously. It's quite poetic.

Oh, and for the interested, the film's blu-ray is down to $14.99 on Amazon. I'll be ordering it with my "The State" box set.

[Moltisanti]

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis

Not heeding the Brady Bunch's famous warning,

Does anyone know if that old guy they brought out at the end of that one who tells Bobby that Jesse James killed his father was legit, or just an actor? Weird either way.

[Felt Pelt]

Required listening for this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQBIO-VdQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cts5relHGrE

[Ben Thomas]

Originally Posted by Mattioli

I recommend "The Assasination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford" by Ron Hansen. Seriously. It's quite poetic.

Me too. Its fucking brilliant. And any fan of The Long Riders, should read the early chapters of this book and then go back and watch the climactic shootout in that film. Hill fucking nailed that sequence and its become one of my favourite Western shootouts, just for its authenticity and impact.

[El Gray]

Originally Posted by Mattioli

Oh, and for the interested, the film's blu-ray is down to $14.99 on Amazon. I'll be ordering it with my "The State" box set.

The regular DVD also seems to have gotten a universal price drop to about $8. I saw it for that price at Target, and Amazon has about the same. Awesome.

[Ben Thomas]

Apparently the BD isn't all that. So the regular 2-disc DVD might be the way to go.

[Z.Vasquez]

Originally Posted by Felt Pelt

Required listening for this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kQBIO-VdQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cts5relHGrE

That may be my favorite Zevon song. The history of Jesse James throughout music is just as good as it is on film. You have that ballad covered by the likes of The Pogues, Springsteen and Nick Cave, not to mention the refashioning of it into "The Ballad of Jesus Christ" by Guthrie, and it's subsequent covers (Dylan, etc.). I think it would be funny if someone combined the two: Jesus Christ was a man, who killed many a man, he robbed the union train...

Anyway, between the two films mentioned in this thread that I've seen, Long Riders and Assassination...(I too need to get on Fuller's) I'd give the edge just slightly to Assassination...for all the reasons Zhukov gave, while also mentioning an aspect of it that even when it's being praised never seems to get brought up: the fucking lyrical dialog. Honestly some of the lines in that movie, especially as spoken by Paul Schneider (great overlooked performance), elevate that movie to damn near transcendent levels, for me at least. That being said, The Long Riders is Walter Hill at his absolute best, and since I feel Walter Hill is one of the best American filmmakers of all time (and the definition of a true auteur), I think it's up there with some of the best westerns ever made.

[Z.Vasquez]

Also, not to move this thread too far astray, but I've always found it fascinating how much American Westerns tend to revisit the three figures of myth: Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Wyatt Earp, and how good filmmakers keep finding ways to retell those same stories so that when a new one pops up you tend to get excited about it. True, sometimes you get burned by an American Outlaws, but the success to failure ratio for those three tales is pretty good it seems. Of them, which ones do you guys tend to find the most fascinating? I'd go with Billy the Kid, since unlike the other two, he seemed to fall on both sides of the law at one point or another (though all three certainly committed acts which at the basic level were criminal at best, even Earp). Although My Darling Clementine is probably the best movie made of any of the three of them.

[Phil]

Originally Posted by Ben Thomas

Apparently the BD isn't all that. So the regular 2-disc DVD might be the way to go.

I don't think the US got a 2 disc. The BD in the states has what your 2 disc has, I think.

Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez

Of them, which ones do you guys tend to find the most fascinating? I'd go with Billy the Kid, since unlike the other two, he seemed to fall on both sides of the law at one point or another

I keep waiting for this to come out on disc:

[Felt Pelt]

Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez

Although My Darling Clementine is probably the best movie made of any of the three of them.

I have to disagree, I think it falls victim to the same thing that plagues the other films: uneveness. Good scenes. But, in particular, the final shootout and the romance, I didn't like, maybe because I'm used to more modern violence and I hate love interest subplots. Also I was a little nonplussed that Doc Holliday died in the shootout. But to be fair, Zanuck re-edited and reshot Ford's original version, and that's probably what I saw on TV.

The whole sequence where Fonda works up the courage to ask Clementine to dance, and then they dance, is joyous.

A mixtape of the best of these films would include Schneider's bathtub speech, the knife fight in Dirty Little Billy, and Kilmer in Tombstone. Sam Fuller's "Robert Ford meets troubadour in bar" scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HTepB-6xFs

[Arjen Rudd]

Originally Posted by Phil

Anyone remember HBO's Frank and Jesse with Bill Paxton and Rob Lowe? No? Good.

I remember wanting to see it when it was scheduled to be released in theaters. Then it got killed, and I never bothered with it. Good decision, then?

I find the Wyatt Earp catalogue the more enjoyable, mostly because it has Tombstone and My Darling Clementine in it. I like my Westerns mythic rather than reflexive.

[Keith F]

Phil, have you seen DIRTY LITTLE BILLY? It plays on cable often enough.

[History Buff]

When talking about historical figues being portrayed on film, the distinguished record holder would be Napoleon Bonaparte, yes even more that Jesus Christ. Just thought i'd chime in with that useless random factoid.

[Z.Vasquez]

Never even heard of Dirty Little Billy before, got to check that out. Reading up on it it sounds like it shares a similar aesthetic to Deadwood in it's depiction of the lifestyle of that time. Would anyone that's seen it say that's a right assessment?

Also, I meant to say earlier that of the movies of any of the mythological figures being discussed I consider My Darling Clementine the best (though I personally like Peckinpah's Pat Garret and Billy the Kid more), excluding Long Riders and Assassination, which I actually think are superior films, though
I'm the type of guy that feels a little weird saying a film that's only been released within the last few years is superior to a bona fide classic like My Darling...But I think if you're gonna make that type of statement you could do a hell of a lot worse then going with Assassination.

[Keith F]

Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez

Never even heard of Dirty Little Billy before, got to check that out. Reading up on it it sounds like it shares a similar aesthetic to Deadwood in it's depiction of the lifestyle of that time. Would anyone that's seen it say that's a right assessment?

That's a safe assessment. Whereas you normally think of dust and tumbleweeds, here you should think of mud, and lots of it. Billy definitely isn't glamorized, he's a fairly dumb hick.

As far as the Wyatt Earp legend, I recently saw DOC (1971) for the firt time. This one stars Stacy Keach as Doc Holliday, Harris Yulin as Wyatt and Faye Dunaway as Katie Elder. Keach is good as Holliday, but one of the biggest differences between other versions and this one is the portrayal of Wyatt Earp. Yulin plays him (as only Yulin can really) as a kind of sniveling, greedy, and increasingly desperate politician. He also at one point gets his ass handed to him by Ike Clanton, which then paints the events leading up to the O.K. Corral more about his attempts to save face, to win the next election. Nothing grand or heroic about the actions, it's rife with allusions to the Vietnam war.

[Phil]

Keith, I watched a scene of it on cable, DVR'd it, then lost the film in a DVR upgrade. And I no longer pay for the channels that run it.

Young Guns is, while hokey 80s fun, a surprisingly factually correct version of parts of Billy the Kid's life. Very strange. (Note: "Surprisingly factually correct" - not overwhelmingly accurate, not dead-on, just more faithful to events than I'd have guessed.)

True fact: My dad's eulogy was framed around a discussion he and I once had about all the different cinematic takes on Wyatt Earp, and whether any of them were accurate.

[Casey Moore]

A Train Robbery by Levon Helm: good Jesse James song.

[Felt Pelt]

It's more of a parody of Jesse James songs, but Bob Dylan's John Wesley Harding is pretty good rejoinder to all of these: he takes a crazy-ass psychopath (mispells his name), and makes him a hero of the people. "John Wesley Harding was a friend to the poor/he travelled with a gun in every hand..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3QzquTXlBU

[Fat Elvis]

Originally Posted by Phil

True fact: My dad's eulogy was framed around a discussion he and I once had about all the different cinematic takes on Wyatt Earp, and whether any of them were accurate.

That's interesting, Phil.

You are so right about Frank & Jesse being an abomination. Can't miscast much worse than Rob Lowe as Jesse James!

Pete Hamil's Doc is the revisionist western I haven't seen. A bit controversial at the time, right? Derided for being anti-American, even throws in homosexual overtones.

[Phil]

It was a ham-handed mess, but I was surprised to see the Rob Lowe film latches onto the same "suicide by Robert Ford" theory done so nicely in The Assassination Of Jesse James.

[Mattioli]

Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez

I'd go with Billy the Kid, since unlike the other two, he seemed to fall on both sides of the law at one point or another (though all three certainly committed acts which at the basic level were criminal at best, even Earp).

Not to mention that, of the three mentioned, he was the only one to fight Dracula.

[Z.Vasquez]

Yeah, but as stated above Jesse James met Frankenstein's daughter. Having never seen the film I don't know what "met" entails, but I figure it's more than just shooting the shit over a cup of coffee. Someone needs to make Wyatt Earp vs. Lawnmower man.

[Arjen Rudd]

I realize that the way I view literally all westerns now is that they're standing in the shadow of Deadwood. Been rewatching it, and it's just the best thing ever.

And it also has Wyatt Earp in a couple season three episodes. He's portrayed as smart, young, and forever cleaning up after Morgan.

[Phil]

But also painted as opportunistic and slightly mercenary. I think he's in like two episodes; historically, whether or not Earp was ever in Deadwood is a point of contention with some historians. I kind of wished that, since they bought into him being there on the show, that they'd played with him a bit more.

[Arjen Rudd]

Originally Posted by Phil

But also painted as opportunistic and slightly mercenary. I think he's in like two episodes; historically, whether or not Earp was ever in Deadwood is a point of contention with some historians. I kind of wished that, since they bought into him being there on the show, that they'd played with him a bit more.

Virtually every single character on Deadwood is opportunistic and slightly mercenary. It is kind of odd, I'll agree, to have him there for almost a glorified cameo. And he's almost irrelevent next to Morgan, who at least causes the inciting incident that kicks off the season's climax.