Is it horrible to love Braveheart?

[Bitches Leave]

I still love this movie!

Yes the historical accuracy i laughable at best and so is Mel Hibson's scottish accent (or so I have been told), and that last cry out for freedom does seem pretty corny if one have not completely surrendered himself to the movie and the character of Wallace.
When that's said there are so many wonderful things about this movie.

The characters for one. They are all very memorable, from young Wallace to Hamish and uncle argyle to the King and his weak pathetic son. The casting is so spot on with every character.

Gibson manages to squeeze in 2 love stories for his main character and for me they work amazingly well, both climaxing in tragedy. Murron's when she is executed, I still tear up when that bastard of a Lord cuts her throat and Princess Isabelle's when she's telling the dying King that her unborn child is really Wallace's.

The action sequences are equally great, done in a time before software took over, and it's refreshing to watch the two rather small armies clashing in a time when every historical movie is crammed full of huge cgi battle scenes.

It's a very straight forward story with without a whole lot of layers but that shouldn't be a reason to hate on it. It's a simple telling of an old legendary tale in the vein of Robin Hood.

Many people compare it to Gladiator for some reason, and it does share some of the same themes, but while Gladiator at times get bogged down in grit and seriousness, Braveheart has a lot of humor spread out throughout the tale which serves as an important release valve. Without these small but important scenes it would have been a completely different movie.

Lastly the wonderful pompous score by James Horner works like magic with this film. Many people dislike these heartstringing scores but I'm a sucker for those. Slap in the soundtrack for Braveheart, The last of the Mohicans or Gladiator and I'm off to my dream world.

So there you go, I don't know how the Chewer populace looks upon this film but I doubt the general view is particularly positive and as best people look at it as some kind of guilty pleasure.

But I really still have great love for this movie!

[James Kimbell]

Originally Posted by Bitches Leave

Yes the historical accuracy i laughable at best

Doesn't matter.

He had been in stuff, but this movie basically introduced Brendan Gleeson to the world, and for that it deserves much.

[Chavez]

Braveheart is extremely stirring.

It hasn't aged poorly, but it is definitely of its time; perhaps a bit clunky and ham-handed but GREAT battle scenes/action sequences.

I've always had a soft spot for it because I had heard the name but wasn't 100% on board with what it was about. I walked out of the movie thinking I had seen the Greatest Film Ever Made.

Obviously, I've since cooled on it a bit, but it's still a solid, highly enjoyable film.

[Diva]

I've seen it dozens of times and I cry every time. Love it.

[zak chase]

I find it kind of horrible not to love it.

[Judas Booth]

I still love it, but 50% of my love is directed squarely at Patrick McGoohan's performance as Longshanks. Looking back at it, he really should have been nominated for Best Supporting Actor.

[Fat Elvis]

Annoying how blown out of proportion it was by people with even a drop of Scottish heritage. They thought it was like fucking "Roots" or something.

Battle scenes are second to none. Amazing.

[Bitches Leave]

I always found the boy playing young Wallace very sympathetic and convincing for his age, I'll have to look him up and see if he ever amounted to anything.

ETA: I guess he didn't

[Judas Booth]

That was definitely the year to be Scottish. 'Braveheart' and 'Rob Roy' were in theaters, and 'Highlander: the Series' was at its peak on television.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by Judas Booth

I still love it, but 50% of my love is directed squarely at Patrick McGoohan's performance as Longshanks. Looking back at it, he really should have been nominated for Best Supporting Actor.

Who is this who speaks to AMPAS as though it needed his advice?


McGoohan is DA BOMB. One thing both of the concurrent Scots historical films had going for them (Braveheart and Rob Roy) was awesome fucking bad guys - Longshanks was just badass, and Tim Roth's Archie was eminently hatable. And both were highly quotable.

Both movies had Bryan Cox, too, as far as that goes.

[Judas Booth]

One thing about 'Braveheart': rarely do you ever see natural comaraderie between men portrayed so effortlessly and believably in a film. As his 'army' builds and the friendships form, all of the characters blend and riff off of each other perfectly. You never once doubt that they're friends, and that's a credit to the script, the actors, and to the direction.

Cases in point:
- the campfire scene where Wallace talks about making spears to use against the cavalry.
-the scene were Steven (it's MY Island) shows up with the traitor to join Wallace's army.

eta: holy shit! David O'Hara, the actor who played Steven, was in 'Wanted' as the guy who jumped through the window to the other building.

[ForsakenNoMore]

Love this flick. This is the movie when my heart was taken by Sophie Marceau. Really inspirational and Mel Gibson kicks ass. His death made me teary eyed. FREEDOM.

Every man dies, not every man really lives.

Believe or not, Charles Barkley lives by this motto each day. As do I.

[Arjen Rudd]

As far as the epic goes, I seen a lot, and this is a strong contender for Number One.

Rob Roy is also fucking great, by the by, and might even have a better score.

[Bitches Leave]

It's certainly a pretty impressive directorial debut considering the scope of the movie. It must have been an organizational nightmare!

And yes, I fell in love with Sophie Marceau too. Both women managed to move me despite the short length of their screen time.

"The problem with Scotland is that there are so many Scots!"

[Moltisanti]

Originally Posted by Bitches Leave

It's certainly a pretty impressive directorial debut considering the scope of the movie. It must have been an organizational nightmare!

Not a debut!

[Bitches Leave]

True, I didn't realize he directed "Man without a face", still quite an impressive leap to take!

[AMH]

This is brought up in the original post, but I'll try and explain why it's pretty much a deal-breaker: my major complaint with Braveheart really has to be how linear it's all laid out. That may sound like a strange complaint, and I'd clearly not be the first to suggest that films like Gladiator suffer from the same problem because they follow the same formula, but it's just all TOO predictable. Some would also call the film undeservedly manipulative, but I don't feel too strongly about that. It ties into the formulaic nature of the plot, though, and the example of the whispered confession to the dying king is a prime example of the type of thing I have issues with; plus the oft-stated fact that he's presented as ULTIMATE EVIL COCKSUCKER. Broad strokes still need to be applied with some care if we're going for emotional resonance (unless you're an Academy member. It's kind of the Crash argument, really).

Some fun characters and insane (though sloppy, and plagued with gaffes*) battles make it worth watching. A man wakes up in bed to find his face getting smashed by Mel on horseback, for fuck's sake! I remember reading about a bloodier version still that could be put together with more explicit scenes of events like Wallace's torturous demise, but the latest DVD I don't think explores this and I've given up on ever seeing it.

I've learned to enjoy watching it because all the girls I've known are big fans (and in one case it was this or fucking Boondock Saints; I was thrilled when she stole my blind-buy copy), and I can see how easily it can be endearing, but I maintain that the flow chart-style narrative can only be bandaged by the brutality/fun deviations.

(I do like all the film scores brought up, by the way)

*Let's play "count-the-wristwatches!"

[B_MetalSucks]

Love this movie with no shame. Mostly for the various reasons listed above, the scene where they take the scottish girl from after her wedding turns my guts every time.

[Richard Dickson]

Hmm, I thought there was more dislike for this film around here than this.

I enjoy it -- it's got some great performances, my favorite being Angus Macfadyen as Robert the Bruce. You could really see the turmoil as he longed to give in to his heart and follow Wallace but knew the political realities.

But I don't think it deserved Best Picture over Apollo 13. Or Babe, for that matter.

[duke fleed]

Braveheart is quite the excellent film. Mel Gibson and Patrick McGoohan are terrific as the hero and villain of the film, while Sophie Marceau is perfectly beautiful, as well as perfectly cast. I enjoy James Horners epic score as well.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson

Hmm, I thought there was more dislike for this film around here than this.

I enjoy it -- it's got some great performances, my favorite being Angus Macfadyen as Robert the Bruce. You could really see the turmoil as he longed to give in to his heart and follow Wallace but knew the political realities.

The old curmudgeons haven't appeared yet.

Yeah, Longshanks is an awesome villian, but its Robert the Bruce's arc that makes the movie for me. I mentioned that I cry every time, and I'm sure most people assume its due to Wallace's death. It's actually when Wallace realizes that Robert the Bruce turned on him. The combination of a heartbroken and defeated Wallace and a saddened and regretful Roberts gives me a one-two punch.

This is one of those movies that whenever I come across it while channel surfing, I get drawn in.

[zak chase]

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson

I enjoy it -- it's got some great performances, my favorite being Angus Macfadyen as Robert the Bruce.

I actually just popped back in here to say this. Macfadyen is the unsung hero of this flick. He does a great job selling how much that character is torn between an obligation to his dying father's ideals and a desire to pick up a sword and stand at Wallace's side.

This is coming on Blu-ray later this year. Assuming they don't botch the HD transfer, I'll be upgrading.

[BillyG]

Steven's my name! Steven is one of my favorite on-screen characters ever. He's fun, quirky, and a complete badass. Braveheart would be a much lesser film if not for Steven. Much lesser doesn't mean it wouldn't still be great. I don't care how many times I've seen it my friends and I can catch it on TV and immediately jump into it, and it's one of the few movies I can watch with my dad.

[Judas Booth]

Has there ever been talk about releasing Mel's first cut of this film? Supposedly, it was so gruesome that people were throwing up in the aisles.

[Richard Dickson]

Originally Posted by Diva

It's actually when Wallace realizes that Robert the Bruce turned on him. The combination of a heartbroken and defeated Wallace and a saddened and regretful Roberts gives me a one-two punch.

That's a scene where Horner's score really shines too.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by Bitches Leave

It's certainly a pretty impressive directorial debut considering the scope of the movie. It must have been an organizational nightmare!

In the making of doc, there's a great shot of Gibson wandering around a field with a book titled Directing the Historical Epic for Beginners.

And yes, I fell in love with Sophie Marceau too. Both women managed to move me despite the short length of their screen time.

I'm a Catherine McCormack fan myself.

[Werewolf Girl]

I'm glad this thread exists, as I've been a little embarrassed that I still love Braveheart, it's nice to see I'm not alone. If only Mel Gibson hadn't turned into such a horrible crazy man, it taints my perception of anything he's in ever so slightly (it's just the way I am, I have trouble enjoying Guns n Roses because Axle Rose is such a dick) however, it's still a really enjoyable movie.

I first saw it when I was pretty young and it made me cry, my best friend at the time always wanted to watch it during sleepovers.

[Arjen Rudd]

Oh yeah, MacFadyen is the MVP on this film. Also, interestingly, the historic "Braveheart" is Robert the Bruce. After his death, they carried his heart around for luck in battle, like a relic. I'm not entirely sure the title doesn't actually refer to him.

[mcnooj82]

Originally Posted by Judas Booth

I still love it, but 50% of my love is directed squarely at Patrick McGoohan's performance as Longshanks. Looking back at it, he really should have been nominated for Best Supporting Actor.

Yup! I used to listen to the score for this movie constantly.

Oddly, I always found that I couldn't get into the character of Robert the Bruce. I found him frustrating the same way I found Theoden annoying in The Two Towers. Also hated his leprous father. And not in the 'love to hate' way.

EDIT: A blu-ray of this film sounds great! Though, I don't think it was ever a pristine print. No DVD release I've seen of the film has ever looked pristine. Not in the way that shines on blu-ray, anyway. It's always been a pretty grey and gritty film.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd

Also, interestingly, the historic "Braveheart" is Robert the Bruce. After his death, they carried his heart around for luck in battle, like a relic. I'm not entirely sure the title doesn't actually refer to him.

I always kinda took it that Wallace got the ball rolling towards Scottish independence, but the Bruce is the one who sealed the deal.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by mcnooj82

Oddly, I always found that I couldn't get into the character of Robert the Bruce. I found him frustrating the same way I found Theoden annoying in The Two Towers.

I'd be interested in the "why" of that, if you care to explain.

[mcnooj82]

Originally Posted by Chavez

I'd be interested in the "why" of that, if you care to explain.

It's actually no fault of the film. I just found his constant wavering back and forth to be slightly grating. His constant musings on being doomed and then suddenly getting all cocky ("Is this it? Is this all Saruman can muster?") and then right back to doom ("Soooo much death! What can we doooo?!")

I get that fear and doubt were an important part of his character (as it is for Robert the Bruce). If it clicked for me, I wouldn't mind it. But it didn't, so I criticize. But I loved him in his simplified role in ROTK!

[Spike Marshall]

This film and The Patriot sort of confirmed to every English person ever that the world hated them for really vague historical reasons.

[mcnooj82]

If anything, McGoohan and Issacs made me love the English even more!

[matches]

Originally Posted by Spike Marshall

This film and The Patriot sort of confirmed to every English person ever that the world hated them for really vague historical reasons.

I once had a history test in school based on The Patriot. USA! USA!

[Greg David]

Braveheart is one of those movies whose extreme popularity at the time have caused people to move to the extreme ends of the opinion spectrum. It is neither a complete piece of shit, nor one of the greatest films ever made.

For myself, I think it's quite good, and I think that people who completely dismiss it are doing so for personal/emotional reasons, or simply because they got sick of hearing about how incredible it was that year. On the other hand, if you've seen Spartacus, Braveheart pales in comparison. I think it can only come across as an amazing experience if you've never seen another of its ilk. And there are a lot of it ilk out there among the classics; they just don't make them anymore.

[Andre Dellamorte]

The film is earnest, and that either works for you or it doesn't. I found the film to be poorly paced, and - as was mentioned above - way too linear. When Gibson gets disemboweled, that goes on for - like - six hours right? My problem with it is that it's not a particularly good movie, it's not movie smart, it's more in line with the idea of a long battle epic, but even Spartacus isn't a great movie. And Ben-Hur I find a bit boring. So this may not be my genre.

But I don't think there's any arguing the film is kind of stupid. It's lunkheaded-ness is its charm.

[mcnooj82]

Same reason Gladiator was overpraised the year it came out.

[Greg David]

I will say that Wallace getting it on with the Princess was one contrivance too many for me. I expect that sort of thing in The Sword & The Sorcerer. Here, it felt way out of place.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by mcnooj82

It's actually no fault of the film. I just found his constant wavering back and forth to be slightly grating. His constant musings on being doomed and then suddenly getting all cocky ("Is this it? Is this all Saruman can muster?") and then right back to doom ("Soooo much death! What can we doooo?!")

I get that fear and doubt were an important part of his character (as it is for Robert the Bruce). If it clicked for me, I wouldn't mind it. But it didn't, so I criticize. But I loved him in his simplified role in ROTK!

Thanks. It doesn't bother me, but I see where you're coming from.

I don't feel that the Bruce goes back and forth all that much. Maybe Theoden was just manic depressive.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by Spike Marshall

This film and The Patriot sort of confirmed to every English person ever that the world hated them for really vague historical reasons.

Don't forget Gandhi and Zulu. The Indians and Africans hated the English too.

[Chavez]

Originally Posted by Andre Dellamorte

...I don't think there's any arguing the film is kind of stupid. It's lunkheaded-ness is its charm.

It's what appears to be typical Mel Gibson - cinema as blunt object. Subtle, he ain't.

[mcnooj82]

Originally Posted by Chavez

I don't feel that the Bruce goes back and forth all that much. Maybe Theoden was just manic depressive.

Well, he did just outlive his son. Boo-hoo-hoo-hooooo...

[Farsight]

BRAVEHEART is still one of my all-time favorites. It's a viscerally powerful film, and I worry for anyone who wasn't swept up in the waves of ups and downs that Gibson throws at you. Wallace is the heart of their rebellion, while The Bruce was the brain. The brain makes compromises, while the heart just wants what is right. Wallace is easy to root for with your heart, as he's essentially cutting through all the bullshit of government and politics, and baring his cheeks at the people who use them to control the common man. But your brain knows almost from the start that he's doomed, that his lack of political scheming and unwillingness to compromise his morality won't be tolerated in the real world.

BRAVEHEART is a beautifully shot film, with a masterful score that still instantly evokes an emotional response in me, even when it's being used to promote other films (side note: I HATE THAT). The acting is uniformly great, with my favorite performance being The Bruce (Macfadyen), as he manages to make you hate, pity, and cheer for his character throughout the course of the film. The battles are intense, the emotions earned, and the finale both gut-wrenching and triumphant. It's a great film, and fully deserving of the Oscar in the year it was released.

If there were to be hate directed at a film of this type, I'd expect it to be directed at GLADIATOR, which is wholly derivitive of BRAVEHEART in nearly every aspect, and completely inferior in every way. I enjoyed GLADIATOR, but I know it was mostly due to my goodwill towards BRAVEHEART.

Frankly, I think too many people evaluate whether they dislike something based on whether other people like it. It also seems that some people find anything emotionally direct and bare to be inherently inferior and intellectually abhorrent. I find both stances to be cynical and immature. Sometimes 'the masses' like something because it's actually good, and sometimes an attack on the heart is effective.

I just wish Gibson's lunacy hadn't forced me to replace my BRAVEHEART poster (V FOR VENDETTA now, until Natalie Portman becomes a white supremacist).

[Spike Marshall]

But it's such a ridiculously one sided version of the conflict that was occurring. Usually I don't get as worked up about England getting defamed, but it sort of reinforced this entire 'England' Bad vibe which runs throughout ALL cinema.

[Richard Dickson]

Originally Posted by Spike Marshall

But it's such a ridiculously one sided version of the conflict that was occurring. Usually I don't get as worked up about England getting defamed, but it sort of reinforced this entire 'England' Bad vibe which runs throughout ALL cinema.

Until you get to World War I, then they're okay.

[Andre Dellamorte]

That's one of the interesting things about Gladiator, as it switches that up a bit. Gibson doesn't work with shit cinematographers, so yeah, the film is stunning, so was The Passion, but my main recollection of the movie was a sense of boredom, which I also had with Christ. There's just not much going on under the surface, which may be why Apocalypto is my favorite of his fillms.

[Arjen Rudd]

Gladiator and Braveheart, like many other very good movies that maybe shouldn't have won Best Picture (Shakespeare in Love, The Departed), have gotten a largely unfair backlash. Epic movies are terrible when they're not done well, as in Troy, or Alexander, or many of the Roman pictures that were popular in the 60s. These two are completely rewatchable, have brilliant scores, are full of fine performances and dialogue, have three or four great action setpieces each, and evoke a historical atmosphere that is more mythic than accurate, and is all the better for it.

I liked 300, but it killed Michael Mann's Gates of Fire, which could easily have been of a piece with these. Or even better.

[Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd

I liked 300, but it killed Michael Mann's Gates of Fire, which could easily have been of a piece with these. Or even better.

Even better/worse, it could've been of a piece with Last of the Mohicans, which is the be-all-tit-all of historical epics in my book.

[AMH]

Originally Posted by Greg David

I will say that Wallace getting it on with the Princess was one contrivance too many for me. I expect that sort of thing in The Sword & The Sorcerer. Here, it felt way out of place.

I'm repeating myself, but the "BTW, I'm having his child, oops, sorry, you're dead" bit with her and the king is just wretched.

Still, it has arrows-in-asses.