Interesting take on the Matrix I found

[Shaolin]

When you get down to it, it's a quest movie. Think Keanu Reeves as Frodo Baggins. Or Luke Skywalker. But it's a quest which takes place in a virtual world, laden with Black ICE. That strikes me as a pretty decent concept for a movie. Even the idea of live humans, racked up in life-support machinery and wired in to the imagined world: that mystery should have either stayed a mystery, or had a better explanation.
Let's recast the idea into a role-playing scenario. It's for a small group, selected by a charismatic NPC who thinks he knows what's happening.
That's an important point to bear in mind.Why does everyone assume that Morpheus is *right* about what the machines are up
to? Agent Smith has a rather different explanation.Indeed, Agent Smith's rant to Morpheus puts things in a very different perspective,
and he's in a *much* better position to know.
Remember, even Morpheus admits that it was humans who completely trashed the environment, and he even leaves open the
possibility that we started the war.
Note that, despite Morpheus's claim that no-one has ever taken out an agent in a fight, Neo and Trinity take out several while rescuing him. They come back, but it buys N&T vital time.
As far as I recall (and I have the DVD, so I've seen it a few times--I liked the film) the only people who kill other people are Morpheus's bunch. (It is implied that you die when an Agent takes you over, but it is implied by Morpheus.) And Cipher has a number of good points about Morpheus's leadership style, and the relative benefits of living in the Matrix versus the real world.
Maybe it is a thinking person's film. Maybe people simply aren't thinking hard enough.
A major hollywood blockbuster with an unreliable narrator? Maybe. They had to do it subtly, of course, but note that the
machines do nothing villainous on screen. They hunt down terrorists who are responsible for the deaths of four police officers in the first scene. They give the local police orders for their own rotection, which really *are* for their own protection.
Humans trashed the environment. They couldn't survive. The machines, being basically benevolent, decide to save the human race, and stick them in massive life-support systems. They simulate a nice world for them to live in. First, they try to simulate a paradise, but that doesn't work, for whatever reason. So they simulate the world at the height of human civilisation. That works, and it's a damn sight better than the real world. (Unless, perhaps,
you live in Africa--but maybe no-one does. The Third World might be pure simulation.)
Morpheus, being slightly psycho, thinks people should live in the shit reality, and goes around killing folks to make his point. Neo actually can mess with the Matrix in major ways, and does so.
AFAIR, that's a consistent interpretation of what happens. It also makes vastly more sense than Morpheus's story, because it doesn't include the obviously stupid 'batteries' line. I mean, that is *so* obviously stupid that not even a hollywood script-writer would
let it slide. (OK, that isn't true, but let's not assume idiocy where
there is no need.) Thus, it's a clue. We are supposed to realise that Morpheus doesn't know what he is talking about.
Morpheus is the main villain. The Oracle is the evil vizier. Neo is a dupe. Agent Smith is the flawed hero. The bad guys win. It's a remarkably ambitious and daring film.
Further evidence in support of this: the film *never even raises* the possibility that the 'real world' is another simulation. This is such an obvious question to ask that it must occur to most people who see the film. Morpheus and co just assume that it is. They must assume that, because otherwise their whole mission loses its meaning. They can't even allow themselves to question it,
because it would undermine the certainty that drives their terrorist activities. That tells you a bit more about their state of mind.
Note that I think the 'real world' *is* the real world, because it is hard to make sense of the plot if it isn't. Not impossible, but the whole thing becomes trivialised--it's a game for the entertainment of the terrorists.
How much of this was in the film, and how much am I putting there? I don't know.

[Jason Pollock]

I think you're putting a lot there-and I think it's a damn sight more interesting than what the Bros. Wachowski put there...

[Jormungandr]

A few months back, I wrote an essay comparing Fight Club and The Matrix for fun. When I got to the section on violence, I found it to be an interesting comparison. The violence in Fight Club is turned inwards within the rebellious group, while the violence in The Matrix is externalized and directed at traditional agents of law and order.

However, I'd also point out that the rebels in The Matrix are "clean" in their (in-the-movie) approach - they take care of children, target only combatants (whereas the machines torture Neo before he has any idea what is going on... though, the rebels do say that they will kill Neo if he doesn't join them... then again, every rebellion behaves like that)

I wouldn't go quite so far in condemning the rebels within the Matrix - the behavior of the agents clearly indicates a disregard for humanity beyond that of any nice guy government. (I'll avoid a discussion of the real world here) We don't know what happens to those whose bodies are taken over by the agents, but we can assume that it isn't nice. Every human is potentially a host for the government's security and can be taken over without due process.

I think the Wachowski brothers are much more correct in their depiction of rebels than other Hollywood rebel groups. Morpheus has committed his men to the overthrow of the established order and to that end, he is willing to use the means at his disposal to get the job done. His rebellion can't awaken most of the people to his side - to do so would kill them - and he doesn't do the obvious thing to weaken the machines - terrorism against the humans in the real world. (if the Machines need the power, think what EMP pulses in the center of the human storage beds could do) In telling his men that they will have to kill those who resist them, Morpheus is merely stating a truth of any rebellion - one even more prevalent in a situation where anyone can become a supercombatant at any time.

Your comparison to a roleplaying game situation is correct IMO - and from certain things that I have heard, the Wachowski Brothers DO play roleplaying games.(apparently at least one of them used to be on the KULT RPG's list)

[Jormungandr]

HAM, it's getting tiresome to see you bash the Matrix on every board. I don't think that a single CHUD reader has failed to notice your opinion. While you have a right to express it, it remains basically the same post on all 40 or 60 threads where you have put it up. If you dislike it so much, why not just stay away from where people discussing the movie are enjoying it, rather than feeling the need to run into the room and yell at them for getting things out of it?

[LowShot]

I'm scared that you write essays "for fun".

[Hellblazer]

Coming to HAM's defense (not that he needs it), hopefully before he loses his temper and starts ripping you a new asshole, I don't think of what he's doing as 'bashing the Matrix on every board'. He's just doing what everyone's doing, expressing his opinion about the movie. It just so happens that he doesn't like it. And by telling him to 'just stay away from where people discussing the movie are enjoying it', you're basically telling him to sod off and leave the message boards, because this movie gets discussed a lot.
No, HAM's opinion on the Matrix doesn't seem to have changed in the time that the boards have been discussing it. That doesn't mean he no longer has the right to express it.

Hellblazer

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"Fear accompanies the possibility of death; calm sheperds it's certainty."

[grendel]

I like your take on it Shaolin, and I'm not gonna knock down anything you said, but all you're really talking about is an inverse of perspective. Was it intentional? Prob'ly not, but the simplicity of the plot--

(did grendel just say simplicity of plot? Yes, he did)

---just makes it all the easier to look through the glass darkly at the Wachahogachewski's film.

Cool thread, though.

My only ADDITION to it though, is that even IF humanity is the bad guy, it is every organisms prioroty to survive. Maybe not every organism's RIGHT to survive (Hanta Virus, AIDS, Mbutu Virus, Anthrax, Dee Schneider), but certainly the #1 genetically coded instruction.

Eat.
Sleep.
Fuck.
Kill.

[Jason Pollock]

Thanks Hellblazer, I mean it.

And Jormangadgrugher-I don't think I was bashing anything-and I don't think Shaolin took anything from it necessarily-I think he was attempting to add to it-to give it weight and meaning-which is what will need to happen in the sequels if they are to have any relevance.

Here's a guy that used his head and
tried to rationalize vague, soft ideas in the film's internal logic and run with them to form compelling ideas-and that is totally how things need to be done. All I did was praise his efforts-he made inroads to conflicts that don't exist yet.

I have heard rumor that sequel concepts for the film include the idea that the "real world" is yet another layer of the Matrix, created to keep the rebels distanced from the truth.

Yawwwn...

But add Shaolin's concepts-that Morpheus is not to be trusted-and suddenly Neo is doing things at Morpheus' behest that he THINKS are right, but is unknowingly doing the bidding of the machines-perhaps the kidnapping of Morpheus in the first film takes on a new meaning-he was used as bait-but what if Neo had let him die-defied the Oracle-would humanity have already won? Where do you go from where the first film ends?

It's easy to compare the Matrix to Star Wars-

Matrix-Standard issue action/adventure that cribs liberally from other sources (HK films, Anime, Comics)

Star Wars-Standard issue action/adventure that cribs liberally from other sources (Japanese films, Sci-fi serials, Comics)

Both have had special meaning and significance attached to them that doesn't really exist.

Lucas made Empire and Jedi mean something by creating a compelling arc.

Now the Wachowski's must do the same thing. With much less to work with. And chances are-being that it's a Joel Silver production, and that the first one was kick, punch, shoot-the subsequent films will be more of the same-Joel is not much of a risk-taking maverick.

These films have to be more-and it's the kind of thinking Shaolin's using that's going to take them to the next level.

And don't tell me what I can and can't say. I do just fine figuring that out for myself. If I was going to every topic and spouting venom, that would be one thing, If I was just repeating some bullshit like "THE MATRIX EATS MY ASS", it would be one thing, but few here would deny that my arguments are well-thought out, and fewer still-but they exist nevertheless-would say they are completely valid. Either way, you have no right to tell me where to go.

Thank you for calling.

[chenzzo]

Well, HAM, I was about to stick up for you, but you said it better than I ever could. I hardly thought your statement qualified as bashing in any way, shape or form. It seems to me, from past experiences on the boards, that you havve only "bashed" the Matrix in instances where everyone else was stating their opinion on the flick.

Personally I don't agree with your overall take on the Matrix. I loved it, not despite it's obvious outside influences, but rather because of them. Sure they copped a lot of stuff from other mediums, but if you're gonna yoink something, yoink the best. Maybe it wasn't as original as it could be, but with the exception of "Being John Malkovich" I could say that about 90% of last years films.

But hey, we're all entitled to opinions, and I would fight to the death to allow anybody the right to have theirs, whether I agree with it or not. That's what it's all about folks. If you're not willing to listen to other people's ideas, why should they give a flyin' crap about yours.

Rant over, back to the topic. Sorry about that. To be honest, I never finished reading Shaolin's post, I got bored. No offense intended. It seemed a little too thought provoking for my early morning reading, maybe I'll finish it later.

[Jormungandr]

Now you see HAM, when you post a nice long thought-out message like that, you completely defeat my point http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/smile.gif Your response to Shaolin's point was a standard issue sentence that can basically be quoted. I didn't ask you to not express your opinion, I just asked that if you kept expressing it, you did something more with it. That seems fair to me; message boards are about communication after all and saying the same thing over and over again without altering it does not advance this purpose.

[Jason Pollock]

Thanks, chenzz.

And read the thing when you get the chance-interesting stuff.

[Carl Cunningham]

Oh what the Wachowski's otherwise innocent little sci-fi action flick hath wrought.

[Jormungandr]

Now that civility has won out and had its day, back to more interesting matters...

In discussing reasons to go back into the Matrix and looking for things to do there (perhaps the most important part of follow up movies - what more is there to do in the Matrix), the Oracle naturally became the target of suspicion. I'll definitely go with Shaolin's point where the Oracle is concerned - everything is not quite right with this character - she appears to know everything that goes on in the Matrix and that seems highly suspicious to me. I'll even agree that she might be a bad person - if the Oracle turns out to be villainous (and she doesn't have to be a machine... who says that humans are the only ones in the Matrix? look at Neil Gaiman's story on the Matrix website), it gives the heroes a good reason to stay in the Matrix.

[chenzzo]

I did, it gave me heartburn. Then again maybe it was the tacos I had for breakfast.

Interesting stuff, no doubt.

[Quatermass76]

I said it once and I'll say it again. I hate The Matrix for two reasons.

1) If the so-called heroes are truly fighting so save humanity, then they should show some f**king remorse or at least pause before they massacre a bunch of hapless innocent victims in every shootout.

2) Just what are they saving humanity from anyway? Yes, everybody's a battery for the machines. But as long as society thrives within the computer world then why the hell can't they leave them there. What happens when everyone's freed? They get to live out a miserable existance devoid of anything expect for black skies and mush.

The only character with any real heart was Cypher. Until that contrived s**t at the end that is.

Besides, John Woo did the shoot outs better.

[This message has been edited by Quatermass76 (edited 04-14-2000).]

[grendel]

They're saving humanity FROM the day that the skies clear up and once again the machines can run off of solar power.

Also, my previous statement about organisms fighting for life holds true. On some level, some of them know things are eff-ed up. This is not because they are 'the heroes', but because whether conscious or not, the body knows when it is sick, and will try to tell you (for instance, vomit, or involuntary discharge...you know, like that.)

[Clovis]

First, on the main topic of this thread... It would be nice to think of the machines as somehow benevelent towards humanity, crafting a wonderful world for them when they wrecked their own. However, the two "species" if you will did fight a war with each other. Also, agent Smith's views are clearly expressed when he interrogates Morpheus: he despises humanity. Maybe he is right about the virus-like quality of the human race, but still, he hates humans, and there is no reason to assume that the machines would care to keep the humans alive if they didn't need them as a power source.

Based on that assessment of the situation, it seems perfectly reasonable to try and "save" humanity, since the machines may find a better power source at any moment - maybe fusion or something like it. Even the real world is better than nothing. I agree with grendel that this is partially based on a survival instinct. Also, I think it's a basic human trait to strive for freedom. Living in the matrix may not suck ass like the real world, but you're a slave, no matter how you cut it - even if the machines are benevelent, their benevelent slave owners. Being nice to their slaves is no excuse for having them.

Now, on to Quatermass...

>>1) If the so-called heroes are truly fighting so save humanity, then they should show some f**king remorse or at least pause before they massacre a bunch of hapless innocent victims in every shootout.<<

Well, let's see... If they let these innocent victims kill them, then their cause will pretty much be over. That's a bad way to fight a war

>>2) Just what are they saving humanity from anyway? Yes, everybody's a battery for the machines. But as long as society thrives within the computer world then why the hell can't they leave them there. What happens when everyone's freed? They get to live out a miserable existance devoid of anything expect for black skies and mush.<<

I guess I already answered this one. One word: freedom. How much does it mean to you?




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Kill a man, and you are an assassin. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill everyone, and you are a god.
~ ~ Jean Rostand

[GDog]

I've been thinking the same things Shaolin. My first tip off was Agent Smith's ramblings to Morpheus. He makes a good case ya know. Any environmentalist would tell you he nailed it right on the fuckin head. Thinking back, Morpheus DID say that he didn't know who shot first in the war, but he was sure it was us who blackened the sky.

Now, that stands out as a mystery that I don't think any of us can explain until we see the next two movies. The movie shows what the Earth looks like with the dark sky. I'm no bigtime scientist, but just seeing that I can say that doesn't look like the kinda shit that just goes away after a few years. A catastrophe such as the one the humans inflicted on Earth can only spell suicide.

But obviously suicide isn't what happened, the existence of Zion proves that. Maybe it was thought they could block out the machines source of power and sit underground for a few thousand years waiting for the sky to clear up.

I do believe the BS about humans being batteries. As stupid as it sounds, nothing else makes sense. Just how are the machines getting power then? Accepting the battery line woulda actually reenforce your arguments. See, even if Morpheus and Co could beat out the machines and take control of things they couldn't just wake everyone out of the matix that day. There'd be no where for them to go. The Earth's been blacked out, and I doubt Zion could accept a couple billion new residents. So maybe taking over the matrix is a plot by the inhabitants of Zion to get another source of power.

Soon enough...we'll see...

[GhostInTheMachine]

I love this movie to death but I can disprove the entire thing very easily with scientific logic (let me know if someone has brought this up)...

If the machines need energy so badly they would not live on the EARTH! They would fly out of the blackened atmosphere to another planet or just orbit the sun -- because the only source of energy in our universe is the sun - everything revolves around it, the humans, the stuff the machines feed the humans, the stuff that feeds what the machines feed the humans etc. This system is extremely ineffecient because humans waste energy as heat (just like us eating cows who waste 90% of the energy they get from plants as heat)....Besides, moving closer to the sun, or another star means LOTS more energy.
So the machines simply leave the Earth - They OBVIOUSLY have the capability. The humans therefore serve no purpose and would be left to die.

so basically this movie makes no sense on a scientific level...

This idea could open new doors (if you are very particular and need to rationalize everything like I do):
- Maybe the machines are staying on earth to study the humans.
- Maybe the machines do not know what to do without humans...IE they have no purpose but to make us suffer - they would not function without a goal, and their only goal has been to defeat us...
- Maybe the machines have already conquered space and earth is a tiny, insignificant part of their domain
- Maybe ultimately there are humans running the machines - some madman, who refuses to wipe out the race entirely.

Those ideas are desperate to say the least, and are probably not what the WB's had in mind. So basically this movie has a nearly non-existent foundation - though i love its message and thought it kicked ass.

let me know what you think


[This message has been edited by GhostInTheMachine (edited 04-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by GhostInTheMachine (edited 04-14-2000).]

[GDog]

The more I think about it, the more I can see the true purpose of the film...

There is no message. There is no moral. There is no greater meaning.

The matrix...is a big computer game that the Wachowski brothers made up so we could watch some cool as hell Hong Kong style kung fu fighting. All the rest is just very badly thought out details.

But, I dare anyone here to say they didn't come out of the theater gushing about the cool fighting and the plotline that played into our inherent paranoid fantasies, and not the philosophical implications that may or may not be present.

In fact, the last time I watched the Matrix I just fast forwarded to the kung fu fight with Neo and Morpheus and watched from there.



[This message has been edited by GDog (edited 04-14-2000).]

[Jason Pollock]

THANK FUCKING CHRIST SOMEONE FINALLY FUCKING GOT IT!

It's just a Kung-fu flick-THAT'S IT!

BIG UPS to GDOG-fo' keepin' it real-

Damn, YO!

I am so happy and proud right now! Oh, may day has been MADE!

[GDog]

whoa there HAM! I still like the movie. Just not for any deep reason.

---------------------------------------------

"Everybody was kung fu fightin'"

[DJEvil]

Watching that movie the first time, I was in awe. I felt that it was really great. It was that same kind of feeling I get when I play a game like Final Fantasy where it's like a grand fairy tale. Call me a sh*thead, but I did. There. I said it. I can't wait for the next two either

Now the next two or three dozen times, I only paid attention to the special effects...

And it always bothered me that nobody else seemed to mind that they slaughtered about a hundred cops. I remember when Ice-T got bad press for the lyrics to "Cop Killer."

[Jason Pollock]

Hey, GDog-like the movie if you want-It's just good to know that there's someone NOT trying to attach some social significance to it.

[Blofeld]

Re: the slaughter of innocent cops ...

You know they weren't real "people", right? They were 0's & 1's in the Matrix, right? This is popcorn violence ... no one dies -- oh, except the freedom fighters ...

[Jason Pollock]

That's not true, Blofeld-it was my understanding that the people millig around-aside from the simulation thye fought in-were people just like them, represented in the Matrix. I could be wrong, but I thought that's how they were trying to explain it.

[Clovis]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Morpheus and his team are fighting a war. Their enemy may be largely made up of "innocent" police officers, but they're still fighting a war. There's no room for them to hesitate about killing these people if it means death for them. That's what a war is about, even if its a revolution: killing the other guy before he kills you. It might not be a pleasant reality, but it is reality. I'm not saying the Matrix is a perfect movie, but please, within the context of the war that the people of Zion are fighting, their actions are absolutely justified.

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Kill a man, and you are an assassin. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill everyone, and you are a god.
~ ~ Jean Rostand

[chenzzo]

Go watch "Rules of Engagement" it'll all make sense then.

[DJEvil]

Still, I haven't heard ONE person mention this. I understand that they're just 1s and 0s in the matrix, but they're still people in society who're cops. "Casualties of war," I guess, but geeze...

I find it odd that Columbine was tied to The Matrix because they "dressed" like characters in The Matrix (was anybody in The Matrix wearing camo?). I guess people just needed to pick on The Matrix and no cops had been killed lately...

Oh, wait...What thread am I in again? Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I was somewhere else...

[GDog]

Here's an interesting take on the matrix. Yesterday my little bro was watching it and he seemed to get the idea that Dozer was being passed off as gay. It was that line: "You'll sleep tonight, I guarantee it." I never really noticed it, but when I listened to it I was cracking up. But hey, I guess some guys would just get lonely when they're on a ship with only two women, one who's sexually frigid and the other being a bit dykish.

Also, I was talking to my father yesterday. He claimed that those turbulence air waves you see on the bullets are real. He used to be real into guns n all that. He was real into long range siloute shooting (shooting a target 250-300 meters with a handgun, sound wierd huh?). Apparently, when your spotting for someone, crouching behind them with a telescope watching the target, and the conditions are right, like it's early in the morning with the suns behind you, you can actually see the bullet traveling. You can see the arc, the turbulence waves, even the the light reflecting of it. Keep in mind this all happens in a fraction of a second, but he claims you can see it.

So, just thought you guys might like to know the reality of the whole bullet effects in the movie.

[grendel]

Well, when you have suns behind you it MUST be easier than those of us here who have to labor under just the ONE sun.
------------------------------
And yeah, he's right about being able to see bullets and their effect on the air. It's a cool thing.

[Patrick Sauriol]

OK, this whole "were the cops in the foyer 1 and 0s or real people?" is something I've wondered about too. I figure that they were real guys with real families, and when Neo and Trinity went in there to rescue Morpheus, they effectively wiped out 60 real people.

Let's also not forget about the office workers in this government building that were killed when the bomb they dropped in the elevator shaft went off. I figure the first few floors were wiped out, easy.

And what about the office workers in the building that Trinity's helicopter crashed into? Three, four floors, blown right out onto the street? And the shrapnel and debris that fell down on the street below? More fatalities there.

I've wanted to ask the Wachowskis a couple of questions about the MATRIX, but the top on my mind would have to be: how many people died when Morpheus got rescued? It's got to be somewhere between 100-200, easy.

About the whole humans as batteries thing, and who shot and blackened the sky first...all we've heard so far is Morpheus' story of the war. We know he's missing large chunks of it. Suppose the intelligent machines found out humans were gonna pull their plugs, and a la Skynet, tried to survive? Suppose it was the humans who wasted their world, and the machines realized the only way to keep humanity alive would be to stick them all inside the matrix for a couple of hundred years and wait for the sun to come back out...

Think about it. If these machines were that intelligent, why not make a solar array in orbit to get the energy you need? Or forget about space...what about making nuclear power? Or wind generated power? Dams? There's got to be more of a reason why the humans are cocooned in the matrix. The way I figure it, both sides contributed to the war...if not predominately the humans who started it. The Wachowskis did a comic story on their website which showed a court trial where a machine was found guilty of committing a murder...which leads me to think the machines may have done an uprising a la "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes", overthrowing their flesh masters and freeing theirselves from a existence of servitude. The humans strike back, and the war escalates until the humans basically wipe the planet off the map, and the machines are forced to run the matrix. Why else keep the human mind occupied in the matrix? Why not just make a race of vegetable batteries?

OK, one insider thing about the movie I've gotta share: heard it through the grapevine that the director of photography tried not to shoot too many scenes where you see Carrie-Anne Moss' derriere...'cuz apparently it looked huge in the leather pants and on film. Now personally, I don't see a problem with Ms. Moss' assets, but that's what I heard. There's one scene where you can see it clearly, when she's striding towards the helicopter right after Neo's defeated the first agent...OK, maybe. Maybe it's true.

[grendel]

What's kind of strange is that, when I watched that scene last night, I inexplicably began to hum "I like big butts and I can not lie..."

It all makes sense now...

[John Makarewicz]

And even wierder is the fact that I watched the Matrix three weeks ago and yesterday when I did some news I felt compelled to say that same thing to send you kind readers off to the boards. Crazy.
http://www.chud.com/news/apr00/apr17jetli.php3

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Yeah, it's that easy

[Clovis]

As I was reading Patrick Sauriol's recent post, I was thinking to myself, "He's just kidding around, he's not really trying to calculate how many people died, is he?" Then I realized he was. And I shook my head in sadness.

Where to begin? First this: whenever you see any action film, do you try to count the collateral damage deaths? I doubt it. Is that because you're more convinced of the "evilness" of the badguys in those films? Perhaps. I would submit to you that the badguys in the Matrix are pretty damn evil, and I mean by this the machines. Who cares who started the war?!? That was at least a century ago! The matter at hand is that the human race is enslaved, and brave men and women are trying to free them! You'll note James Cameron never implied that SkyNet was in some way good or justified in its attempted and continuing destruction of the human race.

Next, the power issue. It is my contention that the machines use humans as a power source out of hate. Why not use solar arrays, or nuclear reactors? Well, what the hell, why not use all these stupid humans that are lying about wasting resources? It's easier than killing them, at least initially. I'll admit that the motivation of the machines is perhaps the least well-defined part of the film, but I don't think they're doing it out of humanitarian feelings. As I said before, even "nice" slavery is still slavery. There's no good way to be a slave.

Finally, the issue of casualties. What would you prefer Neo and Trinity to do? Lay down their weapons so they too can be tortured by the agents? Or maybe they'll be shot out of hand, because the agents only really need Morpheus. So, that seems like a good plan for a bunch of freedom fighters: give up an get killed. You can argue that the machines were at fault for violating the laws of war by putting a military target in a civilian area, but I'll have you note that Dozer makes a point of saying that this building is, essentially, a military installation. As such, those people inside it have waived some of their rights. One of those rights is the right not to be targetted during war. They are combatants, and are thus subject to being killed. The building into which the helicopter crashes is a different matter, but the thing would not have crashed at all if Agent Smith had not shot a bunch of holes in it, so I would lay the blame for those deaths at his feet. Not that he particularly cares.

Right, that's the last time I'm saying this. To sum up: war sucks, people die, Morpheus and crew are fighting a war, get over it!

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Kill a man, and you are an assassin. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill everyone, and you are a god.
~ ~ Jean Rostand

[Blofeld]

I for one am really pissed that so many 0's & 1's died.

[Jason Pollock]

The thing that annoyed me the most about the Matrix was a lack of a strong villainous personality. And so far as the collateral damage goes-IT'S CALLED BODY COUNT-and people LOVE tallying it-whether it's 100 or so in Die Hard, of 15-16 in Friday the 13th. Patrick was proving a point-you wanna' kill 'em? Fine, leave them in the fucking pods-they die slow and happy. This movie defies all logic.

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I am a man fired from the barrel of a gun.
Instructions:Remain calm. Prepare to destroy.

[Patrick Sauriol]

Actually Clovis, I was just trying to make mention of an interesting thing I thought of when I watched THE MATRIX, not trying to impress on you my geekness at counting collaterial casualties in a film 'cuz I have nothing better to do. I think *you* did a better job of that.

Let the catfight commence!

[MOX]

I had some input on this but there is too much text here already so. I say to you all who find flaws in the story is try to put everything into perspective given the information supplied to you.

Imagine the life the people in Zion lead seeing the farms of people etc etc.

Imagine waking up from the dream world.

the think factor of this film is what is amazing here. and I feel that the dissertations above me are prime examples of overthought and trying to find something that makes this film less great.


dont hate me because I am beautiful http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/smile.gif

[John Makarewicz]

EVERYONE:

It's a fucking action film.

Enterfuckingtainment.

------------------
Yeah, it's that easy

[Jason Pollock]

Ahhhh...thank you.

[Blofeld]

Don't you care about 0's & 1's, John?

Makaheartless

[Jason Pollock]

You have a point, Blofeld-imagine how much less entertaing and informative Sesame Street would be if there were no "0's" and "1's"...

At least we could still learn three words of Spanish...

"AGUA!"

(I fixed it)

This post was brought to you by the number "10".



[This message has been edited by Hot Animal Machine (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Blofeld]

Hey, that's Calista Flockhart and Cameron Manheim!

[Clovis]

AHHHH! Brain...exploding! Spurting...! ARGH!

[Hellblazer]

What's the matter, Clovis? It's not like he said you were in the middle of a Calista Flockheart-Camyrn Manheim sex sandwich or something.

[GDog]

Did you mean "AGUA" HAM?

AQUA's latin, I think

[Jason Pollock]

Yes, yes I did...

I took five years of French.

Al I got outta' that was the ability to speak like Jean Claude Van Damme...

[Blofeld]

You took French and your English deteriorated?

[Jason Pollock]

The accent, Blofeld, the accent.

Works really well on the opposite sex, lemme' tell you...

[Blofeld]

You know what I found works really well on the opposite sex? The axe in it.

[Jason Pollock]

Yeah, eventually.

It's an option.