The greatest and most disturbing artist ever!

[Wetbones]

This guy makes H.R. Giger and Joel Peter Widtkin look like total pussies!

Check out his gallery here:

http://fx.sakura.ne.jp/~sympow/poison/galleryuz/index.cgi

His name is Waita Uziga and he's published 6 volumes of manga to date, all of which are snuff/torture themed. Highly recommended if you can stomach this kind of stuff (some of it makes even me feel rather queasy) but sadly only available in Japanese for now.

[Wetbones]

You are definitely right that it takes away from the shock value. But then again if you read some of his stories you'll be glad it's a comic and not more realistic. In his latest anthology he has a story about a slave girl who gets pregnant by her captor. When she's in her 9th month of pregancy he cuts her open, rips out the fetus, rapes the unborn baby while the girl begs for its life. Then he puts it in a blender, mixes it until it's just mush and then proceeds to pour the remains out in front of the crying woman. Really upbeat, life-afirming stuff!

[Jason P. Thompson]

Originally posted by Wetbones
You are definitely right that it takes away from the shock value. But then again if you read some of his stories you'll be glad it's a comic and not more realistic. In his latest anthology he has a story about a slave girl who gets pregnant by her captor. When she's in her 9th month of pregancy he cuts her open, rips out the fetus, rapes the unborn baby while the girl begs for its life. Then he puts it in a blender, mixes it until it's just mush and then proceeds to pour the remains out in front of the crying woman. Really upbeat, life-afirming stuff! Alright... I could handle the illustrations, but that's just fucking sick.

[HellSpawn]

Well that was somewhat unsettling.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Malachi Constant
That stuff sounds like it has all the depth and complexity of a Guinea Pigs flick.

And it most likely appeals to the same audience as well. It amuses me that even the most hardcore horror fans have their limits of what they can enjoy and what is "sick". For me, as long as it isn't real, there's no such thing as too fucked up. That particular story from MAI-CHAN'S DAILY LIFE made me depressed for days. Now *that* is powerful storytelling! Most of the pap that passes as horror these days just bores the hell out of me. I like to be shocked and disgusted and grossed out. I want the artist to knock me out with a sledgehammer and then assrape me with his AIDS infected dick and taint me forever! The only reason I like horror is because I like to experience extreme emotions. This is WHY.

[Jason P. Thompson]

Originally posted by Wetbones
I want the artist to knock me out with a sledgehammer and then assrape me with his AIDS infected dick and taint me forever! The only reason I like horror is because I like to experience extreme emotions. This is WHY. Time for your medicine now... that's a good boy... yes... drink up....

[bunnymud wants tacos]

YEEEE OWWWWW!!!!


NSFW

[OahuSilverado]

The greatest and most disturbing artist ever! You're certainly right about the most disturbing.

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by Wetbones
And it most likely appeals to the same audience as well. It amuses me that even the most hardcore horror fans have their limits of what they can enjoy and what is "sick". For me, as long as it isn't real, there's no such thing as too fucked up. That particular story from MAI-CHAN'S DAILY LIFE made me depressed for days. Now *that* is powerful storytelling! Most of the pap that passes as horror these days just bores the hell out of me. I like to be shocked and disgusted and grossed out. I want the artist to knock me out with a sledgehammer and then assrape me with his AIDS infected dick and taint me forever! The only reason I like horror is because I like to experience extreme emotions. This is WHY.

It's not shocking to me. It's a cry for attention at best. "Look! Lookit me! I'm doing fucked up shit! Aren't I a bad ass! Huh? Huh? Aren't I?". I just think it's worthless garbage with no merit, myself.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Yes, yes...all well and good...but is it ART??

[Wetbones]

Define "art". Only because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art. Too many people will argue that "art" is what is beautiful, what pleases the eye. But beauty (and thus art) is in the eye of the beholder.

Again, I'm surprised that this comes from someone posting at a horror MSG board ... 99% of all people would dismiss any and all horror films as worthless trash that should be banned or destroyed and has no value (artistic or otherwise) whatsoever. But I don't agree with that kind of redneck reasoning.

Art has always been about violence. Go back to cave drawings, which were usually about hunting and killing animals. Look at paintings from ancient Greece or Rome or the work of the great painters of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance and so on, and you'll find more blood and guts and bare boobies than anything else. Man has always been fascinated by sex and death, Eros and Thanatos, creation and destruction, the alpha and omega. Those are the corner stones of our existance and it is only natural to think about them and to communicate your findings to others through whatever medium you find at your disposal.

I find that people like Waita Uziga or Suehiro Maruo (whose work has been collected in English in the anthology ULTRA GASH INFERNO) are very much in the tradition of the Grand Guignol theater of France and also the Marquis de Sade. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I certainly won't argue that everyone should look at (or like looking at) things like that. But they are valid expressions of our human struggle with our instinct-driven animalistic heritage and that, combined with the cathartic effect that they (can) have qualifies them as art in my eyes.

[Bloodcat]

Uziga deserves to eat a clip full of hollow point bullets.

His stuff goes beyond shock into sheer sickness.

Its not horror, its misogynysm masquerading at horror.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

...at what point did I say I didn't like it?
(assuming that was adressed at me)...

That being said, it smacks too much of 12 year-olds trying to 'out-gross' each other with their prepubescent doodles...take it from me, I work in a school...Just cause this guy is allegedly an adult, and his drawing style advanced, doesn't mean his pictures have merit...I'm SURE there is a market for them, and I'm glad he found his niche.
...and what the HELL is it with female amputees??!!

As for the 'story' posted above, I reckon I could freak most people out here describing picking at the hard, chitinous skin on the soles of my feet...You know, when you get a good swathe of dead flesh, and you peel JUST A BIT TOO FAR and healthy skin starts tagging along for the ride?...I'll stop there...

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Bloodcat
Its not horror, its misogynysm masquerading at horror.

I strongly doubt that he's all that misogynistic, seeing as he's been happily married for many years now and has children. Look at the personal lifes of any of the authors or directors who create really messed up stuff and you'll find that most of them are the most harmless and pleasant people to be around. Stephen King and Clive Barker - to choose the most obvious examples - are no bloodthirsty maniacs only because they write horror.

People who can exorcise their demons by creating this horrific art are much more harmless than all those arch-catholic repressed Bible-thumping types and you'll find that it is those people, those who repress their destructive urges and cannot channel them into creativity of some sort, who will go on to commit the most heinous crimes imaginable, while very, very few artists are known to have taken their fictional obsessions into real life.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by Wetbones
I strongly doubt that he's all that misogynistic, seeing as he's been happily married for many years now and has children. Look at the personal lifes of any of the authors or directors who create really messed up stuff and you'll find that most of them are the most harmless and pleasant people to be around. Stephen King and Clive Barker - to choose the most obvious examples - are no bloodthirsty maniacs only because they write horror.

People who can exorcise their demons by creating this horrific art are much more harmless than all those arch-catholic repressed Bible-thumping types and you'll find that it is those people, those who repress their destructive urges and cannot channel them into creativity of some sort, who will go on to commit the most heinous crimes imaginable, while very, very few artists are known to have taken their fictional obsessions into real life.

So by that token, the assholes from SP Photoshopping pictures of Nick and his family are merely 'exorcising THEIR demons' and their work should be held up as art as well, instead of the juvenile shit it is?

[biff]

Artists dwell on certain themes, like Giger and his biomechanics, or Winslow Homer's seascapes. Violence is a prevalent theme in everyone's life and obviously it's effects on Uziga are a major part of his art. The repulsion, delight, or whatever he draws from it is something he wishes to explore -- or may just be what he gets paid the most for ;D

But while his art certainly is disturbing, I don't think he could be compared to the likes of Giger, IMO -- but I don't find Giger's work disturbing. I have seen Uziga's stuff before, when a bud of mine who is a fan of the grotesque sent forth a link in IRC chat.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by biff
Violence is a prevalent theme in everyone's life and obviously it's effects on Uziga are a major part of his art. The repulsion, delight, or whatever he draws from it is something he wishes to explore --



So why don't we see a self-portrait of him
flaying his own penis, whilst fishhooks drag out most of his lower intestines and being skull-fucked by some Manga-babe with a strap-on?

[ohhh, that got me hard]

[biff]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
So why don't we see a self-portrait of him
flaying his own penis, whilst fishhooks drag out most of his lower intestines and being skull-fucked by some Manga-babe with a strap-on?

[ohhh, that got me hard]

Well, whether or not he includes himself in the work is more dependant on his ego than this his themes, I'd guess. That would be more of something he'd want his audience (and himself) to see him as, instead of a examination of the act itself.

[Boys #22: elmie]

Giger has an instantly recognizable style, and actually takes you somewhere ... He is extremely creative, and has unique vision ...

Uziga is simply taking an established look and making it extreme, but somehow, tired ...

There is no comparison

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Cosmoline
It's stupid tripe. Just the same old woman hating, child molesting nip fetishes.

You confuse racism and prejudices with valid arguments. I find comments like this much more frightening than anything Uziga draws.

[Iron Maiden]

Wow, I can usually stomach anything, but this guy is disturbing. Actually, I don't know if "distrubing" is a strong enough word in this case. The whole fetus thing is crazy. How did he even come up with that? What do you have to think about to start having that sort of imagination?

[Fat Dragon]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
...As for the 'story' posted above, I reckon I could freak most people out here describing picking at the hard, chitinous skin on the soles of my feet...You know, when you get a good swathe of dead flesh, and you peel JUST A BIT TOO FAR and healthy skin starts tagging along for the ride?...I'll stop there...

I forget,are you the guy that keeps talking about his skin disease everytime there's a discussion about gore?

That's it.I want pictures man.

And Wetbones,what exactly is a valid "argument"this artist is putting forth?

For crimeny,and Japanese people think WE are weird......

[Subotai]

By saying 'Nip' you are implying that this is Japanese culture, Cosmo.

There are 125+ million people in Japan. This shit, while reprehensible, is not widespread.

And you know what? Dig deep enough, you'll find as sick shit on this side of the ocean.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by Fat Dragon
I forget,are you the guy that keeps talking about his skin disease everytime there's a discussion about gore?

That's it.I want pictures man.

And Wetbones,what exactly is a valid "argument"this artist is putting forth?

For crimeny,and Japanese people think WE are weird......

Sorry to shatter your illusions, but no I'm not...
Though I AM curious about who you ARE talking about.

[Higher Learning Reloaded]

The pictures are interesting but not thought provoking to me.
I have to agree with those in the thread that say it just shock value, gore and no substance; and the fact that girls are in no shape or form realistic, leans to the absurd, their facial expressions are catatonic- theirs no suffering or anguish in their face. I would put this in the same vein of Ichi the Killer, it's gory, blood soaked, demented but a cartoon just the same.

[Subotai]

Whatever.

Just lay off the racial slurs.

[FarinaMystica]

Originally posted by Bunny Dracula
http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bunnydracula/spridle_and_chim_chim_at_wheel.jpg

Nice. :wink:


As Wetbones was saying, this is merely a view to a person's mind and for those that are jaded and enjoy this style, this is eye candy for them. It may not hold wide appeal but it definitely has carved out its niche in the world.

[Bumatta]

Originally posted by Bunny Dracula
http://img13.photobucket.com/albums/v37/Bunnydracula/spridle_and_chim_chim_at_wheel.jpg


AHHHH oh my GOD, YOU SICK FUCKING MONKEY!!!!!!! AHAAHHHAHA HAHAHAAH AHHHHHHH.......heh. .................................................. .............................................anywa y lets face it. his stuff isnt really that bad, I've seen worse and i'm not even old enough to buy a pack of smokes yet. Is it art? of coarse it is..to someone. Is it sick twisted and perverted? yup, but i think that was the point. people can be fasinated with some very odd stuff. and quite frankly i think eating shit and telletubies are far more desturbing then anything i saw at his galley. it has its place in the world, and even though some people wont understand it, and even more cant see why it is here, i dont understand why it is considered such a taboo...but thats me. are you me? fuck no. your you, make your own opions stick with them if you can. and let everyone have thiers. once we master that, i think people will be able to see other peoples points of view much clearer, and maybe even develope a little understanding.

[cabal]

While this guy's work has cartoonish gore, I wouldn't say it takes him over the top in regards to Joel Peter Witkin. That man uses real dead flesh and bones in his photography. I'm immediatly turned off to any artist that uses that generic manga look as well.

Check out Suehiro Maruo (http://www.woodenmen.org/maruo/images/bloodyface.jpg)

Here's the gallery for more of his works. (http://www.woodenmen.org/maruo/gallery.htm)
This is a bizarre comic he did about Japan defeating America. (http://www.maniform.com/comics/pjap1.htm)

Wetbones, you should also find "Antoine Bernhart (http://frre.fr.freee.frfr.e.free.fr/books%20pages/books/antoine%20bernhart1.htm) " to your liking. Here's another of his. (http://www.lezard.fr/aristes/a4.htm )


As you can see, I am in favor of emulating some of these horror characteristics in my artwork. (http://www.wearecareful.com/%7Ealfrey/digital/portrait2.jpg)

http://www.wearecareful.com/%7Ealfrey/digital/digital.17.jpg

[Higher Learning Reloaded]

Thank you cabal for posting such wonderful and intriguing artwork, I am including your own as well. Mahuro is an artist that, from what I viewed at his website, has depth in his graphic art/violence/ nudity but obviously has some historical context you have to consider. It makes want to learn more about his background and Japanese history in general. That is what art should be about- getting you to think or reconsider your views.
You seem to be willing to take alot of risk in your own work, it has a surreal beauty to it, "The Moth" picture is just awesome!

[Masoumi]

I think this kind of storytelling and imagery is liked by some because it plays on our interest in death. We are the only species conscious of our own life span and inevitable demise.

That said, it can manafest itself in extreme forms of media such as the pictures or whatever depicted in this thread (I didn't look at them, I am just assumeing their subject matter and content based on the responces in this thread).

I personally don't care to even debate if it is art or not. All I want to say is that I think it is sick, it doesn't have any real value from an artistic standpoint and it's just depraved. If you enjoy it, that is fine.

[Wetbones]

I may like Suehiro Maruo even more than Waita Uziga. Maruo's stories have real psychological depth and characters you can understand. His artwork is not very typical for current manga but much more influenced by old Japanese woodcuts and illustrations from the 40ies and 50ies.

I highly recommend you buy the two graphic novels of his that have been published in English, ULTRA GASH INFERNO and MR. ARASHI'S AMAZING FREAK SHOW. Both are readily available at amazon or wherever you want to buy them. The full length PLANET OF THE JAPS story is included in the anthology UNDERGROUND COMICS JAPAN, which is a good compilation despite the ass-ugly and highly inappropriate cover. The stuff that is online is only the first few pages and trust me it get way more disturbing than that ...

Cabal, thanks for pointing out Antoine Bernhart! I'll have to look for more by this guy! Do you know if he's just a painter or if he also has done manga?

[BillJohnson]

Sorry Wetbones, but I have to disagree. I looked at this guy's work and I absolutely hate it. I'm sorry, but I find nothing to like about it whatsoever. I feel that Giger and Witkin at least have a sense of atmosphere to them. A dark moodieness that makes them disturbing. To me, this guy's stuff is just gory cartoons.

[OahuSilverado]

Originally posted by Otik
The aren't all scary. (http://fx.sakura.ne.jp/~sympow/poison/galleryuz/index.cgi?mode=&genre=game&dno=69) Well, that's still kind of fcuked up!

[billylove]

Wetbones, this guy has some talent. I just hope he hasn't wasted it on doing just this crap.

To me this falls into the "shock art" category, but falls flat even in that category.

[Wetbones]

Well, he has done one "normal" adult manga titled IN THE MUD that doesn't have any mutilation, torture or snuff. Other than that he seems to have found his niche (and a certain fame/infamy). What I like about him is that he obviously has the talent to make his money in the mainstream of manga publishing but he chose to do this kind of work. Is it just a cry for attention, a way to make people take notice in an overly crowded marketplace? That may figure into the equation but I don't think anyone who is not into this kind of creepy shit would start drawing it just to pay the rent or get noticed. You have to have the fucked up imagination first and I don't blame him for making money and a name for himself by putting it to such ultimately harmless use.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by BillJohnson
Sorry Wetbones, but I have to disagree. I looked at this guy's work and I absolutely hate it. I'm sorry, but I find nothing to like about it whatsoever. I feel that Giger and Witkin at least have a sense of atmosphere to them. A dark moodieness that makes them disturbing. To me, this guy's stuff is just gory cartoons.

No problem. I respect your opinion. And I agree that Giger and Witkin have more atmosphere and depth to their artwork than Uziga. There's a darkly poetic ambiguity to much of their work that is completely lacking in Uziga's drawings and stories. You can sit down and analyze and discuss a Giger painting but there's no such depth to be found in Uziga's work. His manga are like gore fast food and are indeed mostly schock value. I love them mostly because so little manages to genuinely disturb and gross me out be he does the trick. I cannot say that anything by Giger or Witkin has disturbed me in years. Maybe when I first discovered them but not anymore. They are certainly the more genuine artists, though, and I'd say it'll be their work rather than Uziga's that will stand the test of time. So yes, calling him the "greatest artist" was probably a bit of hyperbole on my part. However, he really is "the most disturbing artist" for me at the moment. The story with the baby in the blender, while ultimately pretty shallow and one note, hit me like a ton of bricks. Just totally not what I expected and I was already familiar with his work.

[billylove]

Originally posted by Wetbones
I don't blame him for making money and a name for himself by putting it to such ultimately harmless use.

Sure, but I don't think he's respected very much in the artistic community. I would just like to see artists like this branch out instead of catering to one group of fans add nauseam.

[Straxboy - An Anthony Hickox Film]

Guns don't kill poeple, people kill people.

But I guess people with guns are more prone....

I got nuthin'.

[billylove]

Originally posted by Straxboy - An Anthony Hickox Film
Guns don't kill poeple, people kill people.

But I guess people with guns are more prone....

I got nuthin'.

Well, they are that much closer...

[AlgertMan]

i thought those pics were damn funny

[moreguinness]

I don't consider one bit of his art original....it's completely typical manga style renderings but he's added some gore for shock value.There is absolutly no comparison between this man's skill as an artist and Giger. I have seen 17 year old girls draw Manga just as well as this guy...I think you have some fetish issues because really as an artist he's nothing special at all.

[moreguinness]

Now this is how you do horror Japanese style
http://www.blastbooks.com/PoH/PoH.html (Panorama of Hell)

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by moreguinness
Now this is how you do horror Japanese style
http://www.blastbooks.com/PoH/PoH.html (Panorama of Hell)

Yeah, Hideshi Hino is great but his stuff is not nearly as disgusting as Uziga's, despite Hino's involvement with the GUINEA PIG series way back when for which he directed FLOWER OF FLESH AND BLOOD. However, Hino is definitely the better storyteller of the two. There are quite a few of his books now available in English, including the great, atmospheric THE RED SNAKE and the rather Kafkaesque THE BUG BOY.

[cabal]

Originally posted by Higher Learning Reloaded
Thank you cabal for posting such wonderful and intriguing artwork, I am including your own as well. Mahuro is an artist that, from what I viewed at his website, has depth in his graphic art/violence/ nudity but obviously has some historical context you have to consider. It makes want to learn more about his background and Japanese history in general. That is what art should be about- getting you to think or reconsider your views.
You seem to be willing to take alot of risk in your own work, it has a surreal beauty to it, "The Moth" picture is just awesome!

Thanks. You can look forward to those images alongside dozens of others being collected in a book in the next year or so strung together in a fairy tale styled storyline. I'm aiming at something between Douglas Wayne Barlowe's "Inferno" and The Brothers Grimm stories.

One of Witkin's photographs of a corpse looks IDENTICAL to my father. It's one of a man sitting upright in a chair with his chest sewn shut, after some sort of autopsy. It looks so much like my father that it's uncanny! Therefore, I'd say that image is the most disturbing I've ever seen in my life.

I found Panorama of Hell for twenty five cents at a used bookstore about 7 years ago!

[AxeMurderer108]

call me sick, immature, uneducated, childish or whatever else.. but i think some of those drawings are pretty cool... especially the chick in the bathtub filled with body parts.. from a gore-fiend perspective.. not some weird hentai obsessor's

but, on the other hand.. ill still take Giger/Barker/Whateverelse-eqsue meaningful or metaphorical.. beauty over shock... artistic looking peices of fucked up work over the gutted anime chicks.. i think they have a lot more to say for themselves visually and meaningfully then the cartoon gorefest

and i also love the Moth piece, nicely done.. i long for the skills to do such pieces myself :(

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones
This guy makes H.R. Giger and Joel Peter Widtkin look like total pussies!

Check out his gallery here:

http://fx.sakura.ne.jp/~sympow/poison/galleryuz/index.cgi

His name is Waita Uziga and he's published 6 volumes of manga to date, all of which are snuff/torture themed. Highly recommended if you can stomach this kind of stuff (some of it makes even me feel rather queasy) but sadly only available in Japanese for now.

I don't know how you can even compare this crap to the work of an artist like H R Giger...manga/hentai or whatever you want to call it is trash.

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones
You confuse racism and prejudices with valid arguments. I find comments like this much more frightening than anything Uziga draws.

So it's perfectly o'kay with you for a grown man to produce "artwork" featuring pre pubescent girls being ripped apart in sexually explicit poses but when someone uses a mild racial epithet it's the end of the world?.

[Bloodcat]

The problem is, some of the things Uziga has drawn, or I have heard folks ascribe to him, have actually been done.

Do some reading up on the Rape of Nanjing (Nanking).

The Japanese army actually DID STUFF LIKE THAT.

This is why I can't casually look at already disturbing material and just laugh it off.

It would be the equivalent of a voyueristic or "snuff style" comic book showing atrocities commited on Jews being drawn by a German. I seriously doubt many people would accept and enjoy that.

Uziga, and many "artists" like him are effectively the same.

Something to think about the next time you want to giggle at some Japanese rape comics or games...

Id like to say I am just overreacting, but it simply does not sit well with me if that makes any sense...

[Subotai]

"mild racial epithet."

Could you come up with an example of a harsh racial epithet?

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by Subotai
"mild racial epithet."

Could you come up with an example of a harsh racial epithet?

"Belgian"

[Wetbones]

What Franco said.

[alice's girl (chucky's ex)]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
"Belgian"

Explain.

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Not the end of the world, but it certainly gets me angrier.

astro_zombie, I'm sure you understand the difference between FANTASY and REALITY. As far as I know, the artist hasn't actually ripped apart anyone. Do you also have a problem with sadistic material like Texas Chainsaw, Haute Tension, Toolbox Murders, Audition? If so, you're probably in the wrong forum. You can put the word artwork in "QUOTES" as much as you want, but it's still just artwork.

As far as cosmoline's casual use of NIP... well, that's REALITY. He really is a racist asshole.

Sure I understand the difference between fantasy and reality but drawings of teenage (or younger) girls being ripped open,knifed,gutted and sexually abused is just plain fucking wrong and no amount of explanation on your part can justify that crap.

If I was to make a film that showed someone raping a 10 year old girl ,sticking a knife in her anus,gauging her eyes out,ripping her open ,disembowling her then pissing in her body cavity(all of which I've seen in Hentai) all in eye popping,unflinching detail would that be considered o'kay? or is it only alright if it's pen and ink drawings with big cute eyes?.

Either way it's sick perverted filth virging on kiddie porn ,I wont dispute peoples rights to view the stuff if they wish to but I also wont hide the way I feel about it either.

By the way I dont have a problem with the films you mentioned,the violence in them is put into the context of a storyline the difference with most Hentai is that it serves no purpose other than to stimulate unhealthy urges and misogynistic attitudes towards women.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by astro zombie
... just plain fucking wrong and no amount of explanation on your part can justify that crap.

You know, it's funny, the exact same thing has been said by conservatives whenever something new came along that pushed the limit. It has been said about Elvis, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, the first time you could see a naked breast on screen, the first time a white man kissed a black woman on screen, horror movies, rock music, the list is endless. I respect that this stuff is not to your liking and it is perfectly OK to say so but the "just plain fucking wrong" statement won't cut it I'm afraid.

Originally posted by astro zombie
If I was to make a film that showed someone raping a 10 year old girl ,sticking a knife in her anus,gauging her eyes out, ripping her open ,disembowling her then pissing in her body cavity(all of which I've seen in Hentai) all in eye popping,unflinching detail would that be considered o'kay? or is it only alright if it's pen and ink drawings with big cute eyes?.

By all means make this movie! ;) But seriously, as long as it's not real it's OK with me. I get upset when real animals are killed for a movie, like for example in the Italian cannibal flicks of the 70ies and 80ies, but I'd have no problem watching what you described as long as I know it's all just SFX and nobody was hurt for real.

Originally posted by astro zombie
Either way it's sick perverted filth virging on kiddie porn ,I wont dispute peoples rights to view the stuff if they wish to but I also wont hide the way I feel about it either.

As for the whole "kiddie porn" thing, you may be interested to learn that the US Supreme Court has ruled about two years ago that fictional child pornography, i.e. drawings, animation, writings etc., are perfectly legal and only the actual, real abuse of children is a criminal offense.

Originally posted by astro zombie
Hentai (...) serves no purpose other than to stimulate unhealthy urges and misogynistic attitudes towards women.

So how is that any different from "regular" pornography? Other than that in anime/manga nobody gets hurt or humiliated for real, which very much happens in live action pornogrpahy.

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones
So how is that any different from "regular" pornography? Other than that in anime/manga nobody gets hurt or humiliated for real, which very much happens in live action pornogrpahy.

As for the whole "kiddie porn" thing, you may be interested to learn that the US Supreme Court has ruled about two years ago that fictional child pornography, i.e. drawings, animation, writings etc., are perfectly legal and only the actual, real abuse of children is a criminal offense.

I'm yet to see a legal porno that featured anything like what I've just described,porno is made for and by consenting adults, some of it is pretty nasty and misogynistic but I believe people should have the right to view if if they wish.

And I don't need the U.S supreme court to tell me whats right and wrong,anybody that would take the time to write story's or draw pictures depicting little girls being raped tortured and killed is a sick fuck!.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by astro zombie
Porno is made for and by consenting adults, some of it is pretty nasty and misogynistic but I believe people should have the right to view if if they wish.

So nasty and misogynistic porno is OK but nasty and misogynistic hentai isn't? :rolleyes:

There may not be a lot of live action porn flicks that feature guttings and amputations but that's only because of budget constraints. Personally I think your averagy scat/piss/puke porno is much more vile than anything Uziga has ever drawn and I strongly doubt that anyone whould "star" in something like that because he/she thinks it's fun and feels good. They may be technically consenting but I'm sure if you'd look into it more deeply you'd find out they need the money for whatever reason, probably drug addiction judging by how they look and by the occasionally visible needle marks ...

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones
You know, it's funny, the exact same thing has been said by conservatives whenever something new came along that pushed the limit. It has been said about Elvis, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, the first time you could see a naked breast on screen, the first time a white man kissed a black woman on screen, horror movies, rock music, the list is endless. I respect that this stuff is not to your liking and it is perfectly OK to say so but the "just plain fucking wrong" statement won't cut it I'm afraid.



Oh come on man!, you can't be serious comparing the 60's moral outrage towards Elvis the beatles and naked breasts to incest,sexual mutilation and pedophilia...that dosen't cut it.

There are some things that know matter how they're looked at are just wrong,I have very few limits and I'm far from a moral,religious or political conservative but hentai is sick shit, what do you personally get out of it?,does the idea of little girls in extreme pain get you off?,I'd like to know.

Like I said I'm not pro cencorship,I believe people should have the right to view what they wish in the privacy of their homes but I also believe I have the right to state that I dont like it .

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones
So nasty and misogynistic porno is OK but nasty and misogynistic hentai isn't? :rolleyes:

There may not be a lot of live action porn flicks that feature guttings and amputations but that's only because of budget constraints. Personally I think your averagy scat/piss/puke porno is much more vile than anything Uziga has ever drawn and I strongly doubt that anyone whould "star" in something like that because he/she thinks it's fun and feels good. They may be technically consenting but I'm sure if you'd look into it more deeply you'd find out they need the money for whatever reason, probably drug addiction judging by how they look and by the occasionally visible needle marks ...

It's illegal to show extreme physical violence or simulated/rape murder in porn,it's still out their if you want it though,cencorship dosen't work.

Your right scat/piss/puke flicks dont do it for me either but some people enjoy taking part in that stuff not all porno girls are strung out junkies.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by astro zombie
It's illegal to show extreme physical violence or simulated/rape murder in porn,it's still out their if you want it though,cencorship dosen't work.

That depends on where you live. You are right, (simulated) rape and violent S/M stuff is indeed illegal in countries like the UK or Germany but it's legal in Japan (duh!) and Brazil ...

[astro zombie]

O'kay then,we agree to differ.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

...I'll throw another single word out for you guys to maul...

"CONTEXT"...these images don't have them.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Belgian

Originally posted by alice's girl (chucky's ex)
Explain.

Never met a Belgian, I gather...I find calling anyone 'Belgian' a 'harsh racial epithet'

but now it's power has been drained...


Thanks.:(

[alice's girl (chucky's ex)]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
Never met a Belgian, I gather...I find calling anyone 'Belgian' a 'harsh racial epithet'

but now it's power has been drained...


Thanks.:(

Let's say I've never met anyone from Belgium, tell me what's special about them..

I've already heard the word used as an insult but since I'm not from the States I never really got where the idea comes from. Cultural difference I guess.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Sorry, Jess, haven't checked this thread out completely since yesterday (or was it the day before), and merely replied to the stuff at the bottom, and things directed at me...

As for a word to maul...how about 'bollocks'?:D

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by alice's girl (chucky's ex)
Let's say I've never met anyone from Belgium, tell me what's special about them..

I've already heard the word used as an insult but since I'm not from the States I never really got where the idea comes from. Cultural difference I guess.

It was (an albeit) crap joke...I might hazard a guess, that where you heard 'Belgian', or in this case 'Belgium' being used as a slur was from Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide...it's apparently the most offensive word in the universe...

What's special about 'Belgium' or 'Belgians'?

Nothing...


Nothing at all...that's the point!:D

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
...I'll throw another single word out for you guys to maul...

"CONTEXT"...these images don't have them.

Um, maybe that's because it's a friggin CG gallery?!? :rolleyes: If you want context go buy his mangas and read them. Some of the stories aren't half bad, actually. The illustrations in his gallery are mostly of characters that appear in his manga or stuff he did for magazine covers and such. He also recently did a CD cover for some death metal band ... Fitting, no? Come to think of it, is anyone familiar with the cover artwork that's on the CANNIBAL CORPSE CDs? The style is different but it's remarkably similar to Uziga in terms of content - and predates his stuff by many years ...

http://tombofthemutilated.ipbhost.com/disc/Butchered.php

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Thanks for the offer...but, no thanks...

I prefer my weird art more like this...

http://www.imgmag.org/images/caramelsauce/leftoutintherain.jpg
(apologies to Farina for grabbing this without asking...)

[moreguinness]

once again on a purely artistic level this guy is nothing special...he is an able artist with no distinct style...his images are just done so peolple like us will babble about how sick he is on message boards...however his art is nothing special. Don't confuse sick with good.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

I agree Jess...context ISN'T needed in art...The observer creates their own...take the above image for example...I immediately want to know WHO,WHY,WHAT,WHERE,WHEN...the stuff wetbones is pimping merely gives me an image of some guy jerking-off over his drawing board, wondering how he can 'out-gross' his last 'masterpiece'.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Untrue...I will stand behind the artist's right to draw it and Wetbone's right to pimp it 'til my dying breathe...

I just don't like it...(OK,...and pimp might be a BIT harsh, ...sorry WB)

[FarinaMystica]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
First off, I don't think he's pimping anything. He's merely bringing it to the attention of the board. I welcome that.

The thing that bothers me most about some of the things that people have been saying about this artist and his work is that someone else could easily make that same claim about each of our favorite horror movies, books, or whatever.

The second you point the finger at some work of art and claim that it's wrong and offensive and serves no purpose but to degrade humanity, you've just opened the door for someone to say the same thing about LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT, or DAWN OF THE DEAD, or TEXAS CHAINSAW, or any other sacred horror text.

You just can not have it both ways. As horror fans, we should all be sensitive to that. But that doesn't mean we have to LIKE the guy's work (I happen to dislike it plenty).

Good point, Jess.

One made after Shatner posted a favorite pic of mine by an artist that deals in bondage themes. *blush*

Some people could look at that pic and say it's misogynistic and demoralizing. The artist intends for it to be a study in consensual master\slave relationships in which a punishment is meted out for the willing slave. Would anyone interpret that by a first glance of the photo? Probably not.

I enjoy what Wetbones has to offer, I enjoy his (to me) outlandish ideas and the way he thinks. I may not connect on some levels but I am open-minded enough to appreciate him. As the saying goes, one man's cheese is another's meat. You don't have to like it or love it. Just my .02 (which I hate saying but I said it anyway).

[i3ullseye]

Now this is a topic worthy of rabid discussion!

Nothing shocks me really. Nothing. I thrive on some of this stuff. And whil I don't think the art adds anything to the actual craft of the Manga style, I think the themes portrayed do indeed push boundries, and that is always a positive thing. To say he is not adding anything, or is not a true artist, would be to deny the importance of Redd Foxx or lenny bruce on comedy. People curse all the time, so what si the big deal if they did it in comedy right?

Wrong. they pushed the envelope and the art form had to adjust to include them, and others like them, enlarging the forms that the expression could take in the future.

Same with Alice Cooper, or KISS, or Sabbath, or Marilyn Manson... ALL of which I love. They push(ed) the envelope, and allow the next gneration of artist the forum to express themselves outside the constraints of the format before they were there.

Do I like his art? Well, I am kinda indifferrent. It doesn't shock me. Even the baby blender doesn't really shock me. I have come up with worse for Rolelaying games I run for friends, or for book/film ideas that I am far too lazy to actually make any real progress on.

but it IS art, and it DOES push the envelope, and that in and of itself is worthy of note.

Now the whole porn as misogynistic argument... if this were true then the men would be making the lions share of the profits right? But that is not the case. Women make more then men by a large ration. VERY LARGE ratio. that is why they are the first to jump up and tell the violent feminists to shut the hell up and leave their industry alone.

People who don't want to see the other side of this however never do. People only see what they want.

[Fireflyfan]

In my mind, and like someone else said, I see it as a lame, desperate attempt to try and get depraved as possible to provoke a reaction. I think it's very, very juvenial, and no more art than the scrawlings of an attention depraved little boy.

[Chalupamonk]

Originally posted by Wetbones
You know, it's funny, the exact same thing has been said by conservatives whenever something new came along that pushed the limit. It has been said about Elvis, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, the first time you could see a naked breast on screen, the first time a white man kissed a black woman on screen, horror movies, rock music, the list is endless. I respect that this stuff is not to your liking and it is perfectly OK to say so but the "just plain fucking wrong" statement won't cut it I'm afraid.

Hahahaaha, I can't fucking believe I just read that. Look -- the flaying and raping of young girls is not the next fad. Yes, I understand that anything is possible, and that's great, but I can say with a great measure of certainty -- and if I'm wrong, Wetbones, you can peel my skin off and skullfuck me -- that the newest international craze will not be the mutilation and murder of young girls. I know you weren't talking to me, but: You're damn right it's not to my liking, and while I don't think it should be taken down -- you don't have to look at it if you don't want to -- I just wanted to point out how ludicrous this statement is in the context of this topic.

Anyhoo, I have a contender for most disturbing artist. ZDZIS£AW BEKSIÑSKII. stumbled across this guy a little while ago after reading through a manga named Blame! (which has a really cool Escher/Giger thing going on) and checked out all of his stuff on this page (http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski.htm).

It's a very surreal and terrifying body of work, I think. There's some stuff out there that has shock value in it, but the greater sense of discomfort comes from the senselessness of a lot of it. It's just really creepy, atmospheric stuff. For example:

http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski_1980a.jpg

There's some much more disturbing stuff there, but this is one of the smaller images that fits more easily on the forums. So go ahead, check it out, say what you think about it.

Edit: Links to a few cute ones:

http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski_1971.jpg

http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski_1983.jpg

http://www.gnosis.art.pl/iluminatornia/sztuka_o_inspiracji/zdzislaw_beksinski/zdzislaw_beksinski_1986_3a.jpg

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Chalupamonk
Hahahaaha, I can't fucking believe I just read that. Look -- the flaying and raping of young girls is not the next fad.

I did not, in any way shape or form, claim that Uziga was starting a worldwide trend, fad or anything! You read something into my post that simply isn't there! What I meant to say is that he is pushing the envelope, crossing over into taboo territory, just like Elvis did with his performances or like the horror films of the late 60ies and 70ies did, much to the shock of the establishment. I chose the examples I did in order to illustrate how common it is to label these new forms of art/entertainment as "sick", "wrong" and "damaging to the youth" or society as a whole. It has always been this way and will always be.

Good to hear I'm not the only one who digs BLAME! by the way. That's easily my favourite manga and surprisingly close to the stuff I frequently dream about ... If you haven't already, make sure to also check out Tsutomu Nihei's prequel NOISE, which is set a few thousand years before BLAME! and explains quite a bit (but also adds new mysteries). There's also a new artbook with Nihei's illustrations available that covers everything from his manga series to illustrations he did for THE MATRIX, WOLVERINE and HELLBOY ...

And thanks for pointing out Beksinski! I hadn't heard of him and I like what I see. A lot!

[cabal]

Beksinski has been one of my favorite artists for many many years. I wish he'd get back into painting again. He hasn't for a very long time.

And this guy's doodles are nothing to be alarmed about. You want to see something truly disturbing? Do you realize people masturbate to things like this? (http://www.rusnecro.com/pictures/best_from_the_snuff/best_from_the_snuff_eng.htm)

And this. (http://www.rusnecro.com/pictures/rusnecro/rn_brand_ps_eng.htm)

There must be an audience for this stuff. (http://www.rusnecro.com/pictures/snuff_anime/snuff_anime_eng.htm)

[Chalupamonk]

Originally posted by Wetbones
I did not, in any way shape or form, claim that Uziga was starting a worldwide trend, fad or anything! You read something into my post that simply isn't there! What I meant to say is that he is pushing the envelope, crossing over into taboo territory, just like Elvis did with his performances or like the horror films of the late 60ies and 70ies did, much to the shock of the establishment. I chose the examples I did in order to illustrate how common it is to label these new forms of art/entertainment as "sick", "wrong" and "damaging to the youth" or society as a whole. It has always been this way and will always be.

Good to hear I'm not the only one who digs BLAME! by the way. That's easily my favourite manga and surprisingly close to the stuff I frequently dream about ... If you haven't already, make sure to also check out Tsutomu Nihei's prequel NOISE, which is set a few thousand years before BLAME! and explains quite a bit (but also adds new mysteries). There's also a new artbook with Nihei's illustrations available that covers everything from his manga series to illustrations he did for THE MATRIX, WOLVERINE and HELLBOY ...

And thanks for pointing out Beksinski! I hadn't hear of him and I like what I see. A lot!

Well, sorry for overreacting, Wetbones. While I'm still not sure I quite understand the meaning of your statement, I also acknowledge that at present I'm incapable of actual coherent thought.

As for Blame!, yeah, I love it. Read Noise too, and although it wasn't quite as interesting as Blame!, it was pretty cool. I've also heard rumblings of another new manga coming out from him this month... something like "Biomega" for the title, I'm not sure. And I've also had dreams of places like the ones Nihei's drawn. I guess that's what I get for reading the entire thing in one night and sleeping for 14 hours.

Cabal - as for Beksinski's newer work, yeah... I really wish he would get back into painting. As much fun as he must be having with digital art, it's crap. I could do something better than most of those, and I can't even draw a straight line. His paintings, on the other hand, are astounding.

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
Untrue...I will stand behind the artist's right to draw it and Wetbone's right to pimp it 'til my dying breathe...

I just don't like it...(OK,...and pimp might be a BIT harsh, ...sorry WB)

Thats exactly what I've been saying,I don't like it but it has every right to exist, I stated numerous times that I don't support cencorship I was only expressing my own personal aversion to hentai ,that's all.

[Bloodcat]

Sure it has the right to exist. And I have the right to despise it and mock the creator, and anyone buggered up enough in the head to like it.

And in case people are shocked anyone could bash it, you haven't seen the amount of disgust Uziga's artwork has caused over the years.

"Let's nuke Japan again!" is a pretty common thing when his artwork is viewed and discussed.

I had a couple more paragraphs written which would probably enrage those who enjoy such pictures or that whole master slave thing, but I decided to take those comments away before posting.

Let's just say I am agreeing with Something Awful's take on many of the more "out there" hobbies, lifestyles, and fetishes more and more as time goes on.

Especially when genuinely opressed people get caught in the crossfire.

[cabal]

Well since we're on the subject, here's a picture I'm currently still working on, which has a real life aborted mutated fetus standing on the shoulder of a giant who's mouth is full of the real life photographed entrails of a woman and a still born baby.

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65841

This is pretty graphic stuff, but the size of it within the whole of the image, it becomes significatly hidden away, almost as an easter egg that the viewer has to discover for themselves. I can't get that across here because I've only posted small croppings from the whole composition. But I think I put the most wretchedly grotesque type of subject matter that this artist uses for shock value, and I personalize it into something .. more. And the Beksinksi influence should be apparent in some of these, for those that are fans of his.

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by astro zombie
Thats exactly what I've been saying,I don't like it but it has every right to exist, I stated numerous times that I don't support cencorship I was only expressing my own personal aversion to hentai ,that's all.

Yeah but some rules and censorship ARE needed. If they were not, how would you feel about pedophile type videos being released freely? Or in cinemas? Kiddie porn could be the next big thing without some kind of regulation. I think there will always been a need for stuff like regulation and rules, if not to a certain degree. And that is how I see stuff like this....it's like kiddie porn. It's a sick act that I would think probably lets the "artist" and possibly it's audience an excuse to get their rocks off.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Fireflyfan
Yeah but some rules and censorship ARE needed. If they were not, how would you feel about pedophile type videos being released freely? Or in cinemas? Kiddie porn could be the next big thing without some kind of regulation. I think there will always been a need for stuff like regulation and rules, if not to a certain degree. And that is how I see stuff like this....it's like kiddie porn. It's a sick act that I would think probably lets the "artist" and possibly it's audience an excuse to get their rocks off.

This brings us back to the subject of reality versus fantasy, which has already been covered to great extent in this thread. Child pornography is real, real people are abused, real lifes are destroyed. Therefore it is a crime. What Uziga does is stricly fantasy, he does nothing except putting these images to paper and making them public. Noboy is abused, exploited or otherwise harmed by these pictures. Therefore they are legal and should be legal because as disturbing and shocking they may be they are still a form of artistic expression. You cannot just lump "kiddie porn" and Uziga's drawings into the same category only because you find them both reprehensible. It's a bit more complicated than that.

[TravisDearly]

Originally posted by Wetbones
You are definitely right that it takes away from the shock value. But then again if you read some of his stories you'll be glad it's a comic and not more realistic. In his latest anthology he has a story about a slave girl who gets pregnant by her captor. When she's in her 9th month of pregancy he cuts her open, rips out the fetus, rapes the unborn baby while the girl begs for its life. Then he puts it in a blender, mixes it until it's just mush and then proceeds to pour the remains out in front of the crying woman. Really upbeat, life-afirming stuff!

thats not good writing. thats not even good manga and his style is horrible.

[TravisDearly]

Originally posted by astro zombie
I don't know how you can even compare this crap to the work of an artist like H R Giger...manga/hentai or whatever you want to call it is trash.

manga isnt trash. have you read every single manga there is?

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by TravisDearly
thats not good writing. thats not even good manga and his style is horrible.

You have not even read the story, just my amateurish summary. What, you disagree with me so vehemently but you trust my summary enough to pass judgement on the story? Will the irony never stop?

[nekkerbee]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
Thanks for the offer...but, no thanks...

I prefer my weird art more like this...

http://www.imgmag.org/images/caramelsauce/leftoutintherain.jpg
(apologies to Farina for grabbing this without asking...)

Does this artist have a website? I googled "Gro-lesk" but didn't find anything of use...

[biff]

Originally posted by nekkerbee
Does this artist have a website? I googled "Gro-lesk" but didn't find anything of use...

Looks like "Gro-tesk" to me ;D And that does rock, as does Beksinski. More art links, youse!

[nekkerbee]

Ah, you're correct. However, googling "gro-tesk" and "leftoutintherain" has brought me no closer to finding his/her website. A link would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[FarinaMystica]

Originally posted by nekkerbee
Ah, you're correct. However, googling "gro-tesk" and "leftoutintherain" has brought me no closer to finding his/her website. A link would be appreciated.

Thanks!

I'm sorry guys...the images that I have of this are taken from a bdsm group that I belong to. It is mostly computer art but if I can host them with no problems to my server, I'll place some of the pics in the sex forum here. I also will post some links in the sex forum to some of these art sites as I think it would be inappropriate to post them in this forum.

[kittyinjammies]

By all means, Farina, post away.

I also want to thank you guys for debating this in a well-thought out manner. This thread has been very interesting.

*mwuah*

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Here are excuses I'm expecting:

Someone will claim that this is worse because it features some drawings of children. Well, so does Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer and that's considered a modern classic. It was one of the best reviewed horror films of it's time. It's considered to be an important work of art.

Someone will claim that the level of graphic sexual violence in the drawings is simply too extreme. Yeah, the countless slasher films from the 80s & 90s never dared to combine sex and death.

Someone will claim that these drawings "serve no purpose" but to titillate sickos. Folks, what "purpose" does Texas Chainsaw have if not to titillate sickos? That's one of the main things horror entertainment provides to the audience... titillation.

I love the "serves no purpose" argument. What "purpose" does any work of art serve?

Blenders serve a purpose. They mix yummy drinks.

Toasters serve a purpose. They electricute those people dumb enough to stick forks in them.

What "purpose" does THE TOOLBOX MURDERS serve (besides giving Tobe Hooper yet another chance at saving his career, of course)? And how is its purpose different from these drawings?

When I watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I do not get sexually aroused by murders, which I highly suspect happens with this artist and possibly his audience with images of rape and whatnot. That's just what it strikes me as. It feels like a sick attempt to get his rocks off and I have a high suspicion that a lot of other people out there get off on it as well. It's rape and mutilation. Child molestors get off of pictures of young children and it's criminal, so I think anyone who gets off on this is on a similar footing.

It reminds me of an episode of the shield where Vic (the cop) visits a porn shop investigating a crime. He discovers a batch of kiddie porn. The store owner says its not real, just a pic of a kids head on an adults body, that no one got hurt. But that still means the audience are pedophiles.

I don't mean to ask this to be an ass, but I am genuinly curious and I don't mean it as an insult: those of you who like this.......do you get any kicks out of it?

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Fireflyfan
I don't mean to ask this to be an ass, but I am genuinly curious and I don't mean it as an insult: those of you who like this.......do you get any kicks out of it?

I don't blame you for asking. The question is an obvious one because Uziga's pictures are indeed often of sexualized torture and murder. I can only speak of myself and a few friends when I say that no, I sure as hell don't masturbate to this stuff and it does nothing whatsoever for me as far as sexual arousal is concerned. As I have said before, I like this stuff because I find it disturbing and it creeps me out. The fact that these pictures show fetishized violence doesn't make them erotic in my eyes but more disturbing.

Are there people out there who get off on this stuff? Very likely so but you can bet that there are people who masturbate to slasher flicks as well. Take Argento for example, especially in a movie like TENEBRE, which has many, many scenes of highly eroticised murders of beautiful women. At times Argento's movies remind me of softcore porn only with bloody murders instead of that other kind of penetration. Argento, much like Uziga in this thred, has been accused of glorifying violence and of misogynous tendencies all the way through his career but he's been doing his stuff for 30 years now and people have started to accept it. In fact many hold his movies in the highest regard and I don't blame them because they are great. But many of the blames heaped on Uziga and his work could (and have) been thrown at Argento's body of work as well. It's just that Uziga is the new kid on the block and working in the medium of manga, which is very new to US and Western audiences and not very well respected (you only have to read this thread to find many examples). So please don't respond to this by telling me that Argento is a god an Uziga is a fucking talentless hack. That's beside the point. They both combine violence and eroticism. That in and of itself cannot be a crime. It's provocative, yes, no doubt about that, but it is the privilege of art to provoke and push boundries. Shock is as valid a technique as any other when it comes to that.

I don't see Uziga as someone who does this primarily to turn people one and I don't think that the majority of his audience sees his work as arousing pornography. Everyone I have talked to about this views his (and that of other, similar artists) work as grotesque (the Japanese term for this kind of manga is guro which is derived from the Japanese pronounciation of the English word grotesque - gurotesuqe) and I, like many other people - and many of the people on this board one should think - like grotesque stuff, because I enjoy being disturbed and freaked out. That's why we're horror fans after all.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by biff
More art links, youse!

We have been talking about Tsutomu Nihei's BLAME and NOISE somehwere in the thread so I might as well provide a link where people can get them:

http://www.omanga.net/?cid=blame

This is a fan-translation and the download is free. Neither BLAME nor NOISE have been licensed for the US so it is legal (for now) to download and read this fan-version.

BLAME and NOISE are in no way like the Uziga stuff that started this thread. It's basically a cyberpunk story set in an impossibly far removed future in a world that looks like it has been designed by H.R. Giger and M.C. Escher. Easily my favourite piece of comic book / manga storytelling.

[nekkerbee]

Originally posted by FarinaMystica
I'm sorry guys...the images that I have of this are taken from a bdsm group that I belong to. It is mostly computer art but if I can host them with no problems to my server, I'll place some of the pics in the sex forum here. I also will post some links in the sex forum to some of these art sites as I think it would be inappropriate to post them in this forum.

I just sent you a PM.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
I'm not trying to flame anyone here at all. I'm just enjoying the discussion. I'm trying to make sense of people's extreme reactions to these drawings. It just continues to strike me odd that something like TEXAS CHAINSAW gets a big thumbs up from some of the same people who think these drawings are practically evil.

I second what Franco said there ... Right from the beginning of this thread it has surprised me how visciously Uziga has been attacked. I expected some shocked and disgusted reactions but not to this extent.

But the more I think about it and the more I read the posts here I get the feeling that it isn't the theme or content of these pictures that provokes these reactions but much rather that they come from Japan and specifically through the medium of manga. From the comments in this thread ("manga is trash", "nip fetishes", "let's nuke Japan again") I get the impression that many of the people who get so worked up about Uziga hate manga to begin with and this merely gives them a welcome opportunity to let off steam. I may be wrong - in fact I hope I am - but my guess is that if Uziga drew the kinds of things he does in an old fashioned oilpaint or watercolor or carcoal style people here would be much less harsh with their criticism.

[astro zombie]

Originally posted by Wetbones


But the more I think about it and the more I read the posts here I get the feeling that it isn't the theme or content of these pictures that provokes these reactions but much rather that they come from Japan and specifically through the medium of manga. From the comments in this thread ("manga is trash", "nip fetishes", "let's nuke Japan again") ..... but my guess is that if Uziga drew the kinds of things he does in an old fashioned oilpaint or watercolor or carcoal style people here would be much less harsh with their criticism.

Slow down there Wetbones,my dislike of Hentai has nothing to do with with the country that it comes from or the race that produces it.

And if the pictures were drawn in a more realistic or western style I'd probably find them more offensive than I do at the moment.

[Rath/Brendan]

Originally posted by Bloodcat
It would be the equivalent of a voyueristic or "snuff style" comic book showing atrocities commited on Jews being drawn by a German. I seriously doubt many people would accept and enjoy that.

There is actually an extreme form of pornography in this country and on the internet that does exactly that. It's black-and-white photographs that reenact Holocaust scenarios with actors and faux limbs, etc. I've not seen it, but I've read about it, and it sounds like stuff just as disturbing than what's in that link.

[alice's girl (chucky's ex)]

I think what makes those pictures sickening, as opposed to horror movies, is the fact that they lack entertainment value. I don't mean that art should be entertaining but if you really have to compare these particular works to movies, you shouldn't neglect the fact that people watch horror films to be entertained while all the entertainment you get from those drawings is just getting grossed out - and that's if you're sane... So yes, in a way, horror movies do serve a purpose.

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Firefly, I think the makers of the TEXAS CHAINSAW remake were clearly trying to turn the audience on sexually by having super-hotty Jessica Beil spend almost the entire film running around in the sexiest little tanktop I've ever seen. Those long, lingering shots of her ass, the way her tits filled out that top... that stuff wasn't accidental, and it had nothing to do with the story. It was there to turn us on.
.

Oh sure, there were shots designed for sex appeal. But not the scenes where anyone is getting chopped up. I doubt the scene where that guy gets his skull smashed in by a sledge hammer was meant for sexual kicks, somehow, and the scenes where people get slaughtered. I don't argue that Jessica Biel was used to get male asses in seats, but I don't think for a minute that the scenes where people are getting sledge hammers to the skull and a chainsaw ripping off a leg were meant for sexual kicks. The actress being sexy WAS used to put butts in seats, but the act itself of murder is not being done to turn people on ( I know i dont' find the thought of being chainsawed through the spleen particuarly erotic anyway). This, it seemed to me, the act of rape is meant to provok sexual arousal. I really don't think the murder portions of TCM were meant to arouse the audience.

you also said:

"In HALLOWEEN, when PJ Soles flashes her tits right before she's strangled to death, Carpenter is goosing the audience by turning them on first and then hitting them with the kill." Yeah, the tits part was designed for sex appeal obviously........but the ACT of killing? I don't see how being strangled to death is sexy, at all. Like I say, your talking about sexy moments, not moments where death is sexy. Maybe he turns you on FIRST, but your shocked out of it by the death. I really doubt many people were still aroused as Michal choked the crap out of her, and if you were, then there's something wrong there I think.

I don't watch horror flicks to get turned on by gore, gore does NOTHING for me. I'm not a gorehound at all.... I just like to be entertained, and I agree with Alice's Girl that there is no entertainment value whatsoever there. I think you would say you like it just to "be different, be individual, go against what society says you should be like" (copywrite and TM just about everyone ever) but I really, really don't believe anyone would like it other than that reason.

[alice's girl (chucky's ex)]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Alice's Girl, there's a big problem with your comparison:
When you say that "all the entertainment you get from those drawings is just getting grossed out" that's EXACTLY what most people think about the stuff that you and I love to watch.


I knew you'd notice it the minute I wrote it down. It's not easy to explain. I guess the thing is, drawings and pictures are not entertaining media per se, while film is. That's why movie can "serve a different purpose" as we said, and that's why they can place a certain distance with the material, while these drawings don't.

I'm actually trying to rationalise something I don't fully get myself. I really think the entertainment factor explains why I was distubed by these drawings, but I must admit that at first my own reaction surprised me a little...

[David Toy]

I think Jess makes a great point. I remember reading a review of one of my favorite horror movies years ago and the reviewer said, 'Who goes to see movies like this? What do they get out of them?' He was basically calling anyone who likes horror movies a sicko. I also don't always watch a horror movie just to be entertained. Sometimes I like to be punched in the gut by a film and that isn't what I call entertaining.

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Firefly, I'm going to say this one last time. I've said it at least THREE TIMES ALREADY in this thread: I do not like these drawings. They do nothing for me. I'm not a fan of them. I don't find them interesting.

Please tattoo that message on your inner eyelids so you don't keep forgetting it.




I know this isn't exactly your fault, but we have had this communications problem before. When I said you, I didn't exactly mean YOU Jess. I more ment in general. I should have said people who like this, but I mean if you like this (adressing it to people who DO like it). I didnt mean you, Jess, in particular, obviously as you did not like it. But it's my fault.

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
The problem, once again, is that if you're a horror fan (not even a gorehound, just a plain old horror fan) chances are pretty good that many of the films, books, or images that you find "entertaining" are most likely considered SICK and PERVERTED by a large group of people.

I would say I am a monster fan. Im not a fan of rape scenes in general, and the only time I can tolerate them is when it's done in a way that shows what a horrible crime it is and how it damages people, which this way doesn't.

With horror films, I mostly only like ones where it involves monsters. The Creeper killing someone is clearly different from a movie where a guy rapes somone, because the monster element strips the movie of all realisim, for me anyway. Even Halloween is a monster movie as Myers clearly is not human.

I don't know.......rape scenes, unless done sensitivly, I just dont' really like to see, and this artist doesn't treat the subject with sensitivity in my opinion.

[nephlabobo]

I looked at these and wasn't impressed honestly.

It tended to be the same thing over and over again. Good for a bit of shock value but once you get past that - not much substance.

[soultaker]

I assumed this would be a thread about Zdzislaw Beksinski.

[Shatner's Bassoon]

Originally posted by Fireflyfan


I don't know.......rape scenes, unless done sensitivly,

I THINK I know what your trying to say, James, but that line really floored me!

Or you mean 'sensitive rape' like Kidman got in 'Dead Calm'?

No, really, did you just type that in a hurry?

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by alice's girl (chucky's ex)
I think what makes those pictures sickening, as opposed to horror movies, is the fact that they lack entertainment value. I don't mean that art should be entertaining but if you really have to compare these particular works to movies, you shouldn't neglect the fact that people watch horror films to be entertained while all the entertainment you get from those drawings is just getting grossed out.

It's unfair to compare the pictures in his gallery to a horror movie. Of course the paintings lack context and narrative, that's nothing unusual with single, unrelated pictures. As I wrote somewhere above, if you want narrative and context go buy his mangas and read the complete stories. But of course you're not very likely to do that, judging from your reaction to the sample paintings. Because that's pretty much what they are: samples. Think of them as you would of a random gory screenshot from some horror movie, preferably something like 2000 MANIACS or GORE GORE GIRLS. Why hasn't anybody brought up Herschell Gordon Lewis' erotic-gore flicks of the 70ies yet? They are considered classics and there's sequels to some of them getting made as I type this yet they're rather extreme explorations of erotic horror or rather sexualized gore. You hate Uziga but Lewis is A-OK? Please explain ...

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by Shatner's Bassoon
I THINK I know what your trying to say, James, but that line really floored me!

Or you mean 'sensitive rape' like Kidman got in 'Dead Calm'?

No, really, did you just type that in a hurry?

Completely my bad- re reading it thats not what I meant at all. I phrased it badly. When I say s ensitivly, I mean treat the subject matter seriously and with sensitivty to victims- show that its a horrible crime and the horrible impact it has on people. This stuff is done with NO thought to that at all, it's not to show how horribly, horribly badly rape scars it's' victims, which are the only rape scenes I think have reason to exist and even then it's hard to watch.

[Bloodcat]

Its not because its from Japan. Its just more well known because its from Japan. (All the animetards running around these days. Anime fandom is slowly becoming the new Furry...)

There are comics like this from western sources too, with that whole "Exploring my dark side" bullshit written on it, while every picture is of a woman being raped and mutilated. (The one I remembered actually was a long ongoing story. Though story is more like an excuse for sick shit.)

Its crap too. I wanna fill that "artist" full of lead as well.

See, some of you seem SHOCKED people would find stuff like Waiza Uziga sickening. This blows my mind that you can be that dulled to sex and violence and just plain reality to think this kinda stuff is going to be widely praised.

Maybe there has to be a limit somewhere, a point where the envelope is left the bloody hell alone.

All this kinda stuff does is give the "OMG TEH CHILDREN AND TEH JEEBUS!" ammunition in their fight to censor anything and everything they do not agree with.

This kind of art killed a comic book store because the shop owner sold a (presumably) lesser but still pretty vile book to an adult. (Look it up on the web. I think it was in Florida. The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund failed to help the owner, so there might be information from them on it.)

Its the same crap as what games like Manhunt and BMX XXX are trying to pull off, seeing how far they can go before they get slapped down, causing trouble for no other reason than they want to sell on an image instead of anything meaningful.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Fireflyfan
When I say sensitivly, I mean treat the subject matter seriously and with sensitivty to victims- show that its a horrible crime and the horrible impact it has on people.

In other words, you want your movies to provide the morality for you. You want them to not offend you. You don't want to be challengedand you don't want to have to bring your own morality with you into the theater. Well, maybe you should stick with Disney movies and the occasional sitcom then.

There's a reason these things are rated 18+ (Uziga's website has a 18+ rating) and that is that people of that age and above are hopefully grounded enough in their lives, reality and morals to be able to expose themselves to this kind of stuff and not be instantly turned into child-raping killers.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Bloodcat
Its not because its from Japan. Its just more well known because its from Japan. (All the animetards running around these days.).

It's OK that you don't like anime and I'll agree that some of the extreme fans can get incredibly annoying but please try to be a bit more tolerant. In the end we're all geeks to a certain degree ...

Originally posted by Bloodcat
I wanna fill that "artist" full of lead as well.

Isn't it ironic that this comes from you, just a few sentences after you bemoan too much violence and vile content in some comic? I have read all of Uziga's mangas and yet it would never, ever occur to me to say something like that, to wish actual violent death to an actual person. Sounds like you are sicker and more perverted than not only Uziga's readers but also Uziga himself. At least we're keeping these things fictional.

Originally posted by Bloodcat
See, some of you seem SHOCKED people would find stuff like Waiza Uziga sickening. This blows my mind that you can be that dulled to sex and violence and just plain reality to think this kinda stuff is going to be widely praised.

I never expected it to be widely praised. I expected controversy, just not like this and not to this degree. As Franco continues to point out it is just ridiculous that people on a horror MSG board who love gory movies and bemoan censorship are all of a sudden crying out for it! It's just plain absurd.

Originally posted by Bloodcat
Maybe there has to be a limit somewhere, a point where the envelope is left the bloody hell alone. All this kinda stuff does is give the "OMG TEH CHILDREN AND TEH JEEBUS!" ammunition in their fight to censor anything and everything they do not agree with.

Wrong. As soon as you start to suppress something like Uziga's work you throw open the gates to all kinds of censorship. You think Uziga is going to far but you can bet there's someone who thinks even Freddy vs. Jason or The Ring are going too far. Should we ban them too? Whose oppinion should we value here? I presume yours because you're somehow the prime moral authority and have the right to tell grown up people what they are allowed to see and what's good for them and what's not. Have you ever thought about applying for a job at the MPAA? They'd love your attitude!


Originally posted by Bloodcat
Its the same crap as what games like Manhunt and BMX XXX are trying to pull off, seeing how far they can go before they get slapped down, causing trouble for no other reason than they want to sell on an image instead of anything meaningful.

How exactly would you define "meaningful"? Do you think the majority of horror films/books/etc. is "meaningful"?

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by JessFranco!
Firefly don't you also think that murder victims and their families deserve similar sensitive treatment? The violent murder of someone you love must be one of the worst things that could ever happen to a person. It would be a living nightmare.


As far as I know, no familes have been harmed by the Creeper, Vampires, or Werewolves, Jason, Blade, zombies, demons, ect, etc. . I am mostly into monster movies, and I HATED house of 1000 corpses if you must know. If you can find me any that have, well, then please feel free.

Wetbones- nope, just unlike you, I take no pleasure in rape sequences. Recently someone I know went through that experience, so I really can't gain any enjoyment out of it at all. I think maybe if it happened to your wife/girlfriend/mom/friend whatever, it would change your opinion bout these pics too.

[tom de plume]

Great debate over a divisive topic.

I looked at a few of the pictures and I think the work is plain awful. I don't get it, I don't like it and I'm repulsed in a way that makes me not want to view any future pictures (not usually a goal for an artist). Still, I've had to explain why I enjoy mindless slasher films, films with demons and all other atrocities put to screen in an effort to scare people and the fact is this: We all have our limits to how much enjoyment we get while squirming.

I find it difficult to watch a movie with a rape in it (especially one that seems realistic), but I loved the nilihism of The Ugly and countless other films. Chances are good that I'm a fucking hypocrite, but we can't always choose which topics we can tolerate and which push our buttons.

[tom de plume]

In other words...

I couldn't rightfully get on a high horse about any animated pictures when I root for nubile teens to get macheted to death while at camp.

Just doesn't seem right...

[Bloodcat]

Ive never thought the point of horror was to root for the villain anyhow..

Even when Jason or Freddy or Bob with the Propeller Beanie (Note to self: Make a villain in the tabletop zombie RPG I am running wear a propeller beanie) kills off an asshat who was clearly there to be cannon fodder. Its not scary or even interesting.

As to the comment about how I shouldnt be mean to anime fans? I was an animetard at one time, or at least I was right on the edge of taking cartoons too seriously. I was there so I am speaking from experience on that point.

But im sorry if people think wanting folks to show restraint in what they draw/write/program is bad and it automatically means everything should be.

People SHOULD restrain themselves lest others do it for them. Humanity as a whole needs boundaries. Its been proven. True freedom is impossible because we would probably stop existing as a species in less than a year...

[Fireflyfan]

Originally posted by Farmer Vincent's fritters
Great debate over a divisive topic.

Chances are good that I'm a fucking hypocrite, but we can't always choose which topics we can tolerate and which push our buttons.

I honestly think we are all hypocrite's to an extent, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I know I can be, and I see how some people can see me as one in this topic, but we aren't machines, I don't know anyone who has never contradicted themselves ever, so it's not just you, it's natural I think. It just differers in extent from person to person.

[Wetbones]

Originally posted by Farmer Vincent's fritters
Chances are good that I'm a fucking hypocrite, but we can't always choose which topics we can tolerate and which push our buttons.

This basically sums up this whole thread. It's a fact that we all have different tastes, likes and dislikes, even if we're all horror fans. We also have different limits, different things that are just too much for us. Fireflyfan mentioned that he cannot stand any depiction of rape (partly) because a friend of him had to go through that horrible experience and it just became something much more real for him. I totally understand that. There's things like this for myself as well ... As I've mentioned in the past I grew up with a paranoid schizophrenic mother who hardly ever took her medication. Sometimes, when she was really far gone, she'd come on to me, suggest I have sex with her. Nothing ever happened because it's not that easy for a woman to rape a boy but it still messed with my head and to an extent it still does. As a result I can't tolerate anything, be it a novel, a movie, a comic or a friggin song, that deals with the subject of mother-son incest. That just hits too close to home for me.

However, and that's what's important here, I don't condemn those who enjoy this kind of stuff. I may tell them that it's not my cup of tea and if they insist or are curious I'll tell them why but I sure as hell won't tell them that they're sick and perverted. Because I may very well enjoy something that's too much for them. We shouldn't try to impose our opinion and worldview on others. What counts is that as long as this stuff is fantasy it should be allowed to exist, no matter what certain individuals may think about it. That's the limit that Bloodcat insists should exist. As long as it's fiction and nobody is hurt in the making of said fiction it can and should be legal. Everything else would be a restriction of the freedom of artistic expression and thus of the freedom of speech. And after all nobody is forced to read/watch these things if they offend them. If you cannot take it, just look away.