Matt's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST review [Archive]

Matt Goldberg

10-21-2002, 09:17 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Matt, I did not take the "surround" issue into accout when choosing my sound grade. The movie sounds good, getting a fresh 5.1 mix. It’s an impressive presentation on my stereo TV, and computer system -- clear as a bell. Not a single dropped line or missed lyric (which is quite an achievement given the speed at which some of the patter-songs get moving). There only seems to be praise for what you heard, so I'm just wondering how it warrants a 7.0?

Also, this is not a tale about "Stockhome Syndrome" First, Belle is a good person. Second, Beast is not a nice person because he was stuck up to begin with, and then he got changed into a monster. Yes, I think after that incident, anyone would be in good spirits. The Beast has every right to be pissed. And furthermore, she CHANGES him. She has a good heart (she WANTS to leave, but she's a woman who keeps her word) and she helps changes her back.

I think it's a good lesson to kids about trying to find the good in others. Sometimes it may seem like it's there to everyone else (Gaston) but other times it's very difficult to see. A childish message I'll admit, but it's at least uplifting.

I guess I just think Blo's review is pretty cynical for a movie such a this.

cesar

10-21-2002, 09:26 PM

The review was a bit harsh, 3 was a bit too low, but each reviewer is different.

The captions, my friend, were great.

Richard Dickson

10-21-2002, 09:40 PM

While I don't go as far as Blofeld, I was bothered by the ending -- how perfect that, after being told for 80 minutes how it's what is on the inside that is important, the Beast turns into your standard Prince Charming. Way to let Belle have her cake and eat it too. It's classic Disney -- have your lead character make a difficult choice, then have the result of the choice almost completely negate the lesson learned in making it. They pulled the same crap with Tarzan -- he decides to let Jane go, to stay with his "family," only to have Jane leap off the boat and stay with him anyway. Having the Prince be somewhat plain (ala Shrek) and having Tarzan watch the boat sail away and knowing he's made the tough, but right choice, would have made both films much more satisfying and powerful. But once again Disney cops out.

Then again, we are talking about the people who gave Hunchback a happy ending, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Cheese Biscuits

10-21-2002, 09:47 PM

Guys... this is Disney we're talking about. They make movies for kids... not you. I don't think kids would like it if the hero died at the end or if the two main character were separated even if they make the right choices. Kids like happy endings... seriously, give it a rest.

I'm not saying you can't criticize the movie from an adult perspective, but attacking happy endings in a kids movie seems to be a wee bit naive.

And, I'm just going to jump a step ahead here, there are movies made for kids just like there are movies made for adults. While Disney movies CAN be enjoyed by adults, they are, for the most part, made for children to enjoy. Beauty and the Beast is an example of a film that's not too sure what it wants to be... as it has a message that kids probably don't need to be taught, but at the same time has singing kitchen utensils. Go figure.

Richard Dickson

10-21-2002, 09:51 PM

ET is arguably a children's film, but you didn't see ET turning the spaceship around and coming back to Elliot, did you? And that film did okay at the box office.

AdamK

10-21-2002, 09:52 PM

Outstanding review!

I have no idea if your right or not but you have certainly made it so I have to go & take another look!

Dennis

10-21-2002, 10:12 PM

An extremely solid review, Matt. Everything in me is screaming that you're wrong, but I believe your thoughts to be sincere and you articulated them wonderfully.

Your captions on the other hand were way off, we kill people that don't like Halo.

Matt Goldberg

10-21-2002, 10:12 PM

Big Poxy:
ET is arguably a children's film, but you didn't see ET turning the spaceship around and coming back to Elliot, did you? And that film did okay at the box office.Yes, but Spielberg has to make his endings as tear-jerking as humanly possible. C'mon..."I'll be right here..." isn't going to upset kids in a way that's a downer. It's not like E.T.'s spaceship crashes into the side of a mountain as he flies off.

flyarz

10-21-2002, 11:30 PM

I need to go watch this again...

Nick Nunziata

10-21-2002, 11:33 PM

Matt Goldberg
It's not like E.T.'s spaceship crashes into the side of a mountain as he flies off.THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT END.

ZED2007

10-21-2002, 11:52 PM

Big Poxy:
I was bothered by the ending, after being told for 80 minutes how it's what is on the inside that is important, the Beast turns into your standard Prince Charming. Once she sees pansy boy, though, I imagine she wants Mr. Tough back. Nice guys are suckers, right? Bad boy syndrome.
We don't do anything nice....and EASY, we only do it nice....and RUFF.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 01:09 AM

(Disclaimer: I do not [/b[] work for Disney.)

Wow, a review whose completely blasted out of proportion criticisms of it's subject are based on theme's which probably wouldn't even be understood, let alone dwelt on by its target audience.

Fairy tales in their most pure form are only slighty diluted versions of myths which address the realities of life.

Mr. Blofeld I suggest you send your daughter to a convent if you truly feel that Beauty & The Beast has the ability to screw up her developement as a woman. She's going to be completely damaged when she finds out that love can acually [b]hurt and that sometimes the ones we love the most in the end are the most imperfect when we first meet them.

It also strikes me as incredibly lazy parenting to simply disallow your daughter to enjoy a film just because you don't seem capable of handling it's themes. It is your job as a parent to allow your children reasonalble leeway in exposing them to material which allows her to see all facets of love and human nature. Even the potentially ugly sides.

It's a sad world indeed when people become so cloistered from the grey that they immediately leap to either the black or white to save face.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 01:10 AM

yikes!

please ignore by inability to properly use UBB Code. eek!

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 01:24 AM

(Disclaimer: I do not work for Disney.)

Wow, a review whose completely blasted out of proportion criticisms of it's subject are based on theme's which probably wouldn't even be understood, let alone dwelt on by its target audience.

Fairy tales in their most pure form are only slighty diluted versions of myths which address the realities of life.

Mr. Blofeld I suggest you send your daughter to a convent if you truly feel that Beauty & The Beast has the ability to screw up her developement as a woman. She's going to be completely damaged when she finds out that love can acually hurt and that sometimes the ones we love the most in the end are the most imperfect when we first meet them.

It also strikes me as incredibly lazy parenting to simply disallow your daughter to enjoy a film just because you don't seem capable of handling it's themes. It is your job as a parent to allow your children reasonalble leeway in exposing them to material which allows her to see all facets of love and human nature. Even the potentially ugly sides.

It's a sad world indeed when people become so cloistered from the grey that they immediately leap to either the black or white to save face.

Ludwig

10-22-2002, 01:38 AM

Daimen Ruud - POMPOUS ASS.

Do you even have kids? Where the fuck do you get off berating Matt's parenting skills simply because he has a different view of what Beauty and the Beast is about? Maybe read the review again and come up with a view of your own rather than just belittle the reviewer, fuckstalk.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 01:53 AM

Mike Arsenault (Ludwig):
Daimen Ruud - POMPOUS ASS.

Do you even have kids? Where the fuck do you get off berating Matt's parenting skills simply because he has a different view of what Beauty and the Beast is about? Maybe read the review again and come up with a view of your own rather than just belittle the reviewer, fuckstalk.My reply is as it is because I feel that Mr. Blofeld's review is simply ludicrous.

I saw plenty of R-Rated films when I was young, some as even young as age 5, does that automatically mean that I was more predispositioned towards commiting violent crime in my later life...no.

I'm a child of divorced parents...does that automatically mean that I am more likely to find myself in a similar situation as a result of filmic entertainment...no.

The truth lies in the fact that I was supervised in my viewing by parents who didn't INSULT my intelligence by not letting me indulge in those films which were geared towards more mature audiences and themes.

It was their jobs as parent to provide me with a forum to ask question, not to indulge in reactionary tendencies which refused my ability to see every side of the equation.

Matt Goldberg

10-22-2002, 02:15 AM

Damien Ruud:
Mike Arsenault (Ludwig):
Daimen Ruud - POMPOUS ASS.

Do you even have kids? Where the fuck do you get off berating Matt's parenting skills simply because he has a different view of what Beauty and the Beast is about? Maybe read the review again and come up with a view of your own rather than just belittle the reviewer, fuckstalk.My reply is as it is because I feel that Mr. Blofeld's review is simply ludicrous.

I saw plenty of R-Rated films when I was young, some as even young as age 5, does that automatically mean that I was more predispositioned towards commiting violent crime in my later life...no.

I'm a child of divorced parents...does that automatically mean that I am more likely to find myself in a similar situation as a result of filmic entertainment...no.

The truth lies in the fact that I was supervised in my viewing by parents who didn't INSULT my intelligence by not letting me indulge in those films which were geared towards more mature audiences and themes.

It was their jobs as parent to provide me with a forum to ask question, not to indulge in reactionary tendencies which refused my ability to see every side of the equation.Seriously, unless you've met the guy, studied life in his house, how he raises his kid, have kids of your own, and you're a freakin social worker, then maybe you can give advice on how to parent.

Otherwise, don't tell someone else to be a parent. I disagree with his point, but I don't know where you get the gall to tell a perfect stranger how to raise their kid.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 02:58 AM

Matt Goldberg:
Seriously, unless you've met the guy, studied life in his house, how he raises his kid, have kids of your own, and you're a freakin social worker, then maybe you can give advice on how to parent.

Otherwise, don't tell someone else to be a parent. I disagree with his point, but I don't know where you get the gall to tell a perfect stranger how to raise their kid.Just because I lay my opinion out there doesn't make it some kind of gospel. Do you really think that anything I say here has any bearing on that actions of Blofely in the real ] world? I don't think so.

IMO, it's one of the most pretentiously inane reviewes of any piece in any entertianment medium that i've ever had a chance to read.

To Blofeld i'd say, make sure you kids never read an original traslation of a Brother's Grimm fairy tale and never let them watch the full production of Sondhiem's Into the Woods.

Two instances in which fairly tales transcend their present day watered down renderings and once again become avatars of reality.

Rath/Brendan

10-22-2002, 03:02 AM

Damien, did you even remotely consider his argument before attacking his parenting skills?

Anyone who has spent a signifigant amount of time on these boards knows Blofeld is one of the best parents ever, bar none. He loves his kids, he truly loves them and does everything he can to make them happy. He's an inspiration, and for you to attack him was shitty. Downright shitty.

Thank you.

Rath/Brendan

10-22-2002, 03:06 AM

BTW, I HATE the ending to Beauty and the Beast. It fucking sucks donkey ass.

And I always felt that Shrek's ending was kind of a cop-out, but that's a different story.

Dan Whitehead

10-22-2002, 03:18 AM

Actually, we do need to be careful what messages we send to our children - especially as children use stories, books and movies as a way to explore emotions and situations they haven't been able to experience for real. If the movie succeeds, then kids will be absolutely enthralled by it, and take on board whatever subtexts lie within. As a parent, you need to keep careful watch over what entertainment is teaching your kids, and try to counteract the messages you see as wrong or misleading.

For instance: Grease teaches us that in order to win back a guy who has treated you like shit, you should dress like a slut and become the kind of girl he wants you to be.

So although Matt's review was ferocious, and obviously provokes an emotional response from people who saw the movie as kids and never thought about the underlying themes, that doesn't make his point any less valid. The "message" of Beauty & The Beast can be taken as "if a man is violent and abusive, stick with him and eventually you can change him". That's the mantra of battered wives all around the world. It's not wrong to point that out.

Some people may not see this message in the movie, and that's the great thing about movies - everybody takes away something different. I doubt that on it's own this movie could cause any serious damage to a young girls worldview, but it's the right of every parent to pick and choose which messages they want their kids exposed to. Given that this is a kids movie, and many people would buy it for their kids, I think it's very useful for Matt to point these things out.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 03:21 AM

RathBandu: Gone Rogue:
Damien, did you even remotely consider his argument before attacking his parenting skills?

Anyone who has spent a signifigant amount of time on these boards knows Blofeld is one of the best parents ever, bar none. He loves his kids, he truly loves them and does everything he can to make them happy. He's an inspiration, and for you to attack him was shitty. Downright shitty.

Thank you.I'm sure he does care for his children greatly. Did I ever say Blofeld Deserves the Award for Shittiest Parent of 2002! ? I think not.

And then again I don't think anyone but Blofeld and Blofeld's children can accurately judge his parenting skills. So for now I will rest the parts of my arguments which deal directly with Blofeld's overall parenting skills.

I will instead focus on my central issue with Blofeld's belief that Disney's Beauty & The Beast contains the ammunition to damage the emotional and psychological developement of today's female (male?) children.

A belief which I feel is completely and utterly irrational. And by refusing his daughter the ability to view a film (under parental supervision) and thereby making her own opinions about what she sees it is he who is in fact undermining his daughter's developement.

Let's leave it at that and see how many still think I'm trying to unequivocally blast Blofeld's abilties as a parent.

Dan Whitehead

10-22-2002, 03:25 AM

Damien Ruud:
Otherwise, don't tell someone else to be a parent. I disagree with his point, but I don't know where you get the gall to tell a perfect stranger how to raise their kid.Just because I lay my opinion out there doesn't make it some kind of gospel. Do you really think that anything I say here has any bearing on that actions of Blofely in the real ] world? I don't think so.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Sorry, but that response is - and always has been - horseshit. Nobody is saying your opinion is "gospel", just that it's wrong to say what you did. You don't call someone a "lazy" parent, and then claim that it's just your opinion, and therefore harmless.

Of course it's your opinion - that is precisely what makes it so offensive, because it's based on no evidence and yet cuts to the very heart of a man's personal life. Do I think that your words have any bearing on the actions of Blofeld in the real world? No, probably not. But words like that still hurt like fuck, and the fact that you think they're meaningless doesn't give you the right to throw them around. In fact, it gives you every reason to think twice before posting shit like that.

You are an unthinking fuckweed - but don't take offense, that's just my opinion. It's not gospel or anything.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 03:50 AM

Smell The Whitehead:
Actually, we do need to be careful what messages we send to our children - especially as children use stories, books and movies as a way to explore emotions and situations they haven't been able to experience for real. If the movie succeeds, then kids will be absolutely enthralled by it, and take on board whatever subtexts lie within. As a parent, you need to keep careful watch over what entertainment is teaching your kids, and try to counteract the messages you see as wrong or misleading.Yes Dan I agree but that doesn't mean you should refuse your children the right to view a film (under parental supervision) which hasn't been shown to affect their developement anymore that they would if subjected to a schoolday full of name-calling, bullies, etc.

I also don't believe that children will develope and sustain a negative connotation from a characterization (Beast) which implements a full 180 degree personality shift during the course of a film. Any negativity will be foist upon Gaston and the real evil of the ensuing witch-hunt of a creature no-one understands.

Smell The Whitehead:
For instance: Grease teaches us that in order to win back a guy who has treated you like shit, you should dress like a slut and become the kind of girl he wants you to be. And so it does in that instance. But that is a much more direct, and willingly implied, instance of suggestiveness than we could ever hope to grasp in a character like The Beast whose character shows a depth amid layers in a way a character like Sandy ever could.

Smell The Whitehead:
So although Matt's review was ferocious, and obviously provokes an emotional response from people who saw the movie as kids and never thought about the underlying themes, that doesn't make his point any less valid. The "message" of Beauty & The Beast can be taken as "if a man is violent and abusive, stick with him and eventually you can change him". That's the mantra of battered wives all around the world. It's not wrong to point that out.Of course you can interpret a film in many ways, and if you've read the original translations of this or any other myth/fairy tale religious or not you are going to get vastly different interpretations. The Bible is full of sex and debauchery but that doesn't mean that most Christian's tout it as "The Good Book".

Smell The Whitehead:
Some people may not see this message in the movie, and that's the great thing about movies - everybody takes away something different. I doubt that on it's own this movie could cause any serious damage to a young girls worldview, but it's the right of every parent to pick and choose which messages they want their kids exposed to. Given that this is a kids movie, and many people would buy it for their kids, I think it's very useful for Matt to point these things out.
If Blofeld is really concerned about the message of this film, I think energy could be more productively spent, for his daughters benefit at least, by Blofeld actually sitting down and talking with her about her feelings after a viewing. Human's only learn by example, and maybe by have her actually see a pattern of behavior which he thinks is dangerous she would be more aware of the dangers of an abusive relationship than by merely having the example locked away in a closet or out of reach on a shelf.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 03:58 AM

Smell The Whitehead:
You are an unthinking fuckweed - but don't take offense, that's just my opinion. It's not gospel or anything.And see you can resort to childish name-calling. But that doesn't mean that i'm not going to leave my room tomorrow and not go to class because Dan Whitehead called me a name on an internet messageboard.

Dan Whitehead

10-22-2002, 04:15 AM

Damien Ruud:
Smell The Whitehead:
You are an unthinking fuckweed - but don't take offense, that's just my opinion. It's not gospel or anything.And see you can resort to childish name-calling.Although I'm merely doing it to prove a point. Why did you reply? Doesn't the fact that it's "just my opinion" render the insult impotent?

Damien Ruud:
But that doesn't mean that i'm not going to leave my room tomorrow and not go to class because Dan Whitehead called me a name on an internet messageboard.Who said you would? I'm just pointing out that questioning someone's parenting skills because of one DVD review is crossing the line of polite behaviour. Nobody's said that Blofeld should be crying in his beer over this.

Johnny Daywalker

10-22-2002, 05:18 AM

Big Poxy:
While I don't go as far as Blofeld, I was bothered by the ending -- how perfect that, after being told for 80 minutes how it's what is on the inside that is important, the Beast turns into your standard Prince Charming. Way to let Belle have her cake and eat it too. It's classic Disney -- have your lead character make a difficult choice, then have the result of the choice almost completely negate the lesson learned in making it. They pulled the same crap with Tarzan -- he decides to let Jane go, to stay with his "family," only to have Jane leap off the boat and stay with him anyway. Having the Prince be somewhat plain (ala Shrek) and having Tarzan watch the boat sail away and knowing he's made the tough, but right choice, would have made both films much more satisfying and powerful. But once again Disney cops out.

Then again, we are talking about the people who gave Hunchback a happy ending, so I shouldn't be surprised.I agree with this statement 100%. I disagree with the review.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 07:41 AM

THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT DEFENSIVENESS, BUT IS ABOUT CONVERSATION, TO CONTINUE SOME OF THE PIECES OF THIS DIALOGUE:

From my review:

My daughter will not see this film again if I have anything to say about it.You see, Damien, she was not denied access. But I know what her response to the first viewing was ... she was enraptured. For several weeks following she waltzed around the house BEING Belle, and wanting me to be The Beast. She wasn't asking for me to be abusive to her ... because she's got no concept of abuse. She was, simply, BEING the film the way both of my children totally embrace the stories that capture their imagination.

It is incumbent upon parents to filter their children's exposure to the world -- consider it directing the spray of their experience rather than simply placing the hose on full-blast and flooding their soil garden. Not much grows if you do that.

I'm horrified at the tales my son tells me of his peers (in the first grade when he reported these things to me) talking about seeing Jaws and Saving Private Ryan -- not that I have anything negative to say about the message of those films, as a matter of fact BOTH of those films will be shared with my kids -- when the time is appropriate.

I choose to present models of healthy fantasy. Beauty and the Beast is not one of those. It does, as Whitehead stated, present the argument of a battered woman's justification as light and frothy "entertainment."

Plus, I don't want my daughter fantasizing about Robby Benson.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 07:48 AM

Actually, Damien, this is the most insulting thing you've said (from the other thread):'

And let's hope that he didn't slam the movie just to appear bravura.

Trust me, this is the way I truly feel.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 07:53 AM

Tony 'The Fist' Delpino:
I think if you're gonna strongly lash out at a beloved Disney classic, you oughta be thorough about it....more thorough than you were, at least in my estimation.You know, Verbal, I'd written a much longer piece, but edited it down to minimize the chances of you simply skimming the review.

amadeus

10-22-2002, 08:23 AM

I'm gonna avoid this review until the DVD arrives and I see the movie.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 08:42 AM

I disagree with the review (though Blo makes excellent points and it is courageous and well written) but I agree with Poxy. It would have been much better if he had been homely.

I think from what I've seen Blo is an excellent Dad and if I felt as strongly about a movie as he did I would protect my daughter from it as well.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 08:46 AM

Poxy is right, the fact that the Beast turns into a handsome man, and the fact that Belle sees a portrait of him BEFORE falling in love, hobbles the intended message. Belle comes off rather shallow.

Michael Rabattino

10-22-2002, 08:56 AM

Blo, I can't fault you for being a good father. It's in every parent's best wishes that their son/daughter grows up with a certain view of things, and if you're trying to protect your son or daughter from conflicting views of what you would want them to learn.....damn good for you. I said I disagreed with your review and said it was bullshit and that it wasn't long enough (and I DID read the whole thing) but that said.....the issue at hand is the message it sends to young girls and the fact that you point this out and took a chance that many other reviewers would not take is pretty brave.

After thinking about it, that's where I stand...

Steve Murphy

10-22-2002, 10:01 AM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
You know, Verbal, I'd written a much longer piece, but edited it down to minimize the chances of you simply skimming the review.Brilliant!

And I really liked your review. How many other people would have the balls to say what they truly feel about a film that is considered a classic by most people?

An excellent read.

flyarz

10-22-2002, 10:20 AM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Tony 'The Fist' Delpino:
I think if you're gonna strongly lash out at a beloved Disney classic, you oughta be thorough about it....more thorough than you were, at least in my estimation.You know, Verbal, I'd written a much longer piece, but edited it down to minimize the chances of you simply skimming the review.Haha, nice! And great review. I'd like to take a side on this but I haven't seen the flick since it's opening in theatres, so this will be a definite rental...

Richard Dickson

10-22-2002, 10:29 AM

I also had problems with the fact that Belle's father is apparently able to march back and forth at will from the town to the castle, but the second Belle tries to leave the castle she's set upon by wolves so the Beast can make a heroic rescue.

ZED2007

10-22-2002, 10:35 AM

Big Poxy:
...Belle's father is apparently able to march back and forth at will from the town to the castle...Yeah but his senile butt gets lost in the woods for how long, like
the whole dang winter ! Wandering around in the cold.

Nick Nunziata

10-22-2002, 10:39 AM

Logistical gaffes aren't as central to this argument, though. Matt's issues are with the film's message, not lapses in logic.

Me, I love the film. Mostly because Gaston's a kick, though.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 10:53 AM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
You see, Damien, she was not denied access. But I know what her response to the first viewing was ... she was enraptured. For several weeks following she waltzed around the house BEING Belle, and wanting me to be The Beast. She wasn't asking for me to be abusive to her ... because she's got no concept of abuse. She was, simply, BEING the film the way both of my children totally embrace the stories that capture their imagination.ok...by this statement I can even begin to see the validity of the point of your review. It is as I said before, "Wow, a review whose completely blasted out of proportion criticisms of it's subject are based on theme's which probably wouldn't even be understood, let alone dwelt on by its target audience.

Tale as old as Blofeld:
It is incumbent upon parents to filter their children's exposure to the world -- consider it directing the spray of their experience rather than simply placing the hose on full-blast and flooding their soil garden. Not much grows if you do that.Yes I agree it is not in the child's best interest to take them to pornography and gun conventions, but refusing them the right to review a children's movie...I don't think so.

Tale as old as Blofeld:
I'm horrified at the tales my son tells me of his peers (in the first grade when he reported these things to me) talking about seeing Jaws and Saving Private Ryan -- not that I have anything negative to say about the message of those films, as a matter of fact BOTH of those films will be shared with my kids -- when the time is appropriate.Uh huh...so they'll be able to witness the random slaughter of humans in both films because the message behind that slaughter is ultimately good (never give up in the face of adversity and abnormally large Great White Sharks) but in the end both films are more harmless than Belle falling in love with Beast because he doesn't try to eat her alive. ya.

Tale as old as Blofeld:
I choose to present models of healthy fantasy. Beauty and the Beast is not one of those. It does, as Whitehead stated, present the argument of a battered woman's justification as light and frothy "entertainment."
No I think he said,

Smell the Whitehead:
The "message" of Beauty & The Beast can be taken as "if a man is violent and abusive, stick with him and eventually you can change him". I doubt the majority of Disney and it's animators were seeking to establish their agenda through Beauty and The Beast.

In closing, I think that your own admission, which proves me point, that your daughter simply passed over those theme's which you feared would harm her and instead enraptured by the more purely romantic and whimsical elements of the story shows that your fears are in the end unfounded.

As with most children, the majority of what is Beauty & The Beast will fade in time and in the end she will only probably remember the ultimate conclusion of Belle and Beast, not this battered-wife's syndrome hurly-burly, and "Be our guest, be our guest, put our service to the test..."

Charlie Brigden

10-22-2002, 12:18 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Poxy is right, the fact that the Beast turns into a handsome man, and the fact that Belle sees a portrait of him BEFORE falling in love, hobbles the intended message. Belle comes off rather shallow.But isn't that like all women?

Kidding...

I'm like Nick, I love the movie, and I dig Gaston a lot. I guess he reminds me of Bruce Campbell. I only recently saw it, and had a lot of fun with it.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 12:37 PM

My problem, Damien, is that I don't believe that the theme "...wouldn't even be understood, let alone dwelt on by its target audience." The issue is one of normalization of something I don't wish her to embrace in her relationship years. You can bet I'll be involved in her life and her decisions in that regard, but the seeds for what is acceptable and what isn't are sown very early in life.

I don't have a problem sharing the violence in Jaws or Saving Private Ryan at the appropriate time because those films are filled with characters doing noble things: for family, for community, for society.

There isn't a single film that doesn't have violence -- it is a fundamental building block of conflict and story. The aim of the story is what's important.

I don't for a moment believe that Disney had an agenda -- you'll notice in my review that I called the message an "ill-unintended" one. I do feel that, especially as the producers of entertainment for children, they owe a greater deal of care toward the choice of their story material.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 12:40 PM

Oh, and the notion that people are to enter into relationships in order to change the other ... that's dangerous, too.

Change may happen ... but only as a by-product. Too many very unhealthy relationships begin and continue based upon the notion that "I can change that person!"

Matt Goldberg

10-22-2002, 01:04 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Oh, and the notion that people are to enter into relationships in order to change the other ... that's dangerous, too.

Change may happen ... but only as a by-product. Too many very unhealthy relationships begin and continue based upon the notion that "I can change that person!"I don't think Belle enters into the relationship to change Beast. She enters into it to save her father.

Also, while it appears that Belle seems interested once she sees the portrait of him as a dashing, young, man, I don't think the argument of she wanting him because he's hot holds up. Gaston is hot (or at least everyone else in the movie thinks so) and she gives him the cold shoulder.

And yes, Beast yells and shouts at Belle, but she stands up to him most of the time. Also, when she's in danger from the wolves, he goes out and protects her. Now you can take that as women can't protect themselves (and they probably can't against a pack of wolves), or you can take it as being there for someone you care about.

Again, I think Blofeld offers up a unique and original opinion; I just don't agree with it.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 01:07 PM

For the record: I stripped my own bed, so that Mrs. Nunziata didn't have to...

billylove

10-22-2002, 01:13 PM

Great review Blofled.

This is a terrible story in a nice package.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld
[QB]My problem, Damien, is that I don't believe that the theme "...wouldn't even be understood, let alone dwelt on by its target audience." The issue is one of normalization of something I don't wish her to embrace in her relationship years. [QB]no dice...I think you are completely off base and out of touch.

Look at any review for the film at either amazon.com or the IMDB and you won't see a single review of the film in which a parent states that they refused to screen or re-screen the film for their child out of fears for the "emotional" or "psychological" developement of their child.

I think you give children (indeed Humans) too little credit. If Beauty & The Beast hasn't already become a figment of her childhood nostalgia by the time her relationship years come about, her RATIONAL MIND, will be able to discern Fairy Tale from Reality and she will place this films on either the pedestal or shelf reserved for Animated Disney Romantic Musicals.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 02:11 PM

Damien, get off your high-horse. Disagree as much as you like. Differences of opinion are welcomed, healthy debate is one of the things this site could use more of, but you insist on taking things to the personal level BECAUSE of your disagreement.

I don't care what other reviewers have to say. I'm not asked by Nick to write reviews for the site because of anyone's opinion but my own. Upon the invitation to write the review, I said I'd have some "ranty" things to say. Nick gave it to me anyway -- and good for him! The last thing this site needs is for someone to regurgitate the popular opinion IF THEY DON'T FEEL THAT WAY.

I stated my opinion. Some people agree, others don't. This thread is a nice change from the standard review responses. But attack the viewpoint, not the viewer, k?

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 02:14 PM

hahaha, I DID find one two/five star review for the film that eerily echoes Blofeld's own comments:

Wrong message to kids, March 13, 2002
Reviewer: A viewer from holton, kansas United States
This movie is my daughter's favorite Disney film. It is also the one animated Disney picture I will never own. The message in this movie is that your ill-tempered, immature, violent boyfriend will change if you just love him enough. I don't want my daughter or her twin brother to think that abuse on any level - verbal, physical, psychological, etc. (all of which Belle tolerates) is ever okay. Especially not in a kids movie. Haven't we learned YET that childhood - early childhood - is where seeds are planted??

This all strikes me as an incredibly conservative Dan Quayle "Family Values" point of view.

Michael Rabattino

10-22-2002, 02:21 PM

I wanted to lash out last night but i'm finding his point of view very refreshing. I'm personally GLAD now that his opinion is the way it is, because it makes CHUD unique. You guys aren't afraid to tell it like it is.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 02:25 PM

DAmien leave it alone. It's the man's opinion. He's entitled.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 02:31 PM

Tony 'The Fist' Delpino:
I wanted to lash out last night but i'm finding his point of view very refreshing. I'm personally GLAD now that his opinion is the way it is, because it makes CHUD unique. You guys aren't afraid to tell it like it is.Pish posh.

Telling it, 'like it is', implies that Blofeld's opinion is in reality fact which it is not. It also implies that my opinion is fact, which it is not.

As highly opinionated as Blofeld and I are, it doesn't make our opinions anything more than subjective reactions to a piece of animated film.

My objections, no matter how fervent, are still opinions. It just happen to feel that Blofeld's opinions on this film are completely off bass, out of touch, and reactionary without good reason.

billylove

10-22-2002, 02:41 PM

Damien Ruud
My objections, no matter how fervent, are still opinions. It just happen to feel that Blofeld's opinions on this film are completely off bass, out of touch, and reactionary without good reason.[/QB]You say your objections are opinions and turn around and say Blofeld's are not?
:rolleyes:

otisthecat

10-22-2002, 03:23 PM

What exactly did you expect to see going into this Blo? One look at any media on this and you know what every characters role will be, how the story will progress and what the outcome will be. There are no surprises here. The Beast is bad because he was a dick as a kid, got turned into a monster and is repeatedly attacked by local villagers. He is not holding Bells dad for ransom. He is just used to abuse so he throws the cat in prison for disturbing him. Bell shows up, offers a trade the Beast is confused with the way these people are acting so why not. He has her locked up, is unsure what to do, is unacustomed to someone not only being unafraid but challenging him. They both must learn to deal with each other. To compare the Beast to an abusive husband is a little off base, he is just a very mad guy trying to protect himself. To each there own though, I'm more of a Little Mermaid fan myself anyway. Just my two cents.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 03:29 PM

What does what I expected going in have to do with my final opinion of the film AS IT IS PRESENTED? Of course I could've told you I would find it troublesome prior to viewing. I find that my expectations bear as much weight as the length of my review.

Excuse the Beast his behavior all you want. The fact of the matter is that Belle, as a character, is asked to fall in love with the Beast in spite of his treatment of her -- because SHE CAN CHANGE HIM.

Dangerous.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 03:34 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Belle, as a character, is asked to fall in love with the Beast in spite of his treatment of her -- because SHE CAN CHANGE HIM.
Who asks her to? Or am I misunderstanding? And the power of unconditional love can change a person. In fact in a way I could see some Christian allegory in this. God loves us even though we are unlovable and redeems us with unconditional love. We are the beast. But that's probably going to deep. wink

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 03:36 PM

Damien Ruud:
It just happen to feel that Blofeld's opinions on this film are completely off bass, out of touch, and reactionary without good reason.Fine that's your opinion. We get it. He doesn't have to explain it to you. Drop it.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 03:39 PM

I'm sorry. Not clear. The storywriters ask her to take that step.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 03:45 PM

And she's successful. Granted she loses a really cool castle in the process.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 03:46 PM

But in life it rarely is successful. The usual result is tragic.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 03:50 PM

Agreed but this isn't anything even approaching real life. It is a faerie tale. It is Disney's job to tell stories which entertain. They were successful. It is not their job to be social engineers.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 03:50 PM

Brian (billylove) Collins:
Damien Ruud
My objections, no matter how fervent, are still opinions. It just happen to feel that Blofeld's opinions on this film are completely off bass, out of touch, and reactionary without good reason.You say your objections are opinions and turn around and say Blofeld's are not?
:rolleyes: [/QB]What are you talking about? Just because I disagree with his opinions doesn't mean that they are not opinions. Blofeld could just as easily say that he feels the my opinions are completely off babse, out of touch, and reactionary without reason that doesn't mean that mean that his claims are any more of a fact than mine.

Anyways...I think i've stated, maybe overstated, me case.

I don't think either the sub-message, ultimate message of Beauty & The Beast is dangerous in any way, shape, or form to the mind of a child. I believe that children should be given resonable leeway (under parental supervision if need be) to witness patterns of behavior which go against the accepted norm.

I'm done. Bye bye.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 03:54 PM

In our world, however, far too many people hold to the "fantasy" when it comes to love and romance. I simply do not wish to introduce my daughter to the idea that she should put up with the Beast for the sake of the true spirit within. Instead, she should find a partner who has already developed his sense of kindness and compassion -- link up with that and make a happy life. Why choose the struggle?

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 03:58 PM

That's cool. I respect your opinion and you certainly know your child better than anyone. If you think that this movie will end up putting her in harmful relationships then I understand.

Keller

10-22-2002, 04:49 PM

So let me get this straight, Blofeld’s opinion on this is overly harsh for the simple reason that girls are smarter than we think even in their youngest years and this message will not be absorbed say like the thought Calista Flockhart and Kate Moss have the ideal body type as proven by their fairy tales, Barbies, and fashion designers the world over have taught. Deep down they really know this not healthy nor attractive (with the exception of Kirby? and fashion designers) but they do it to make themselves happy and are not unduly influenced by imagery from their childhood or fashion media.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 04:55 PM

I don't think it's overly harsh I just don't agree with his opinion that the message is even there. Where I see uncondiotional love has the ability to change, he sees love who you are stuck with regardless of how bad they treat you.

Ludwig

10-22-2002, 04:57 PM

Ha! Keller wins the square!

otisthecat

10-22-2002, 05:02 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Excuse the Beast his behavior all you want. The fact of the matter is that Belle, as a character, is asked to fall in love with the Beast in spite of his treatment of her -- because SHE CAN CHANGE HIM.

Dangerous.You are still treating this as if Belle was tricked into marriage and them founf out her husband was abusive. The Beast doesn't like her or anyone else he treats people as he has been treated. Belle just shows him that not everybody is so bad, the love story is almost obsolete it is them becoming friends at all that is significant to the moral.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 05:05 PM

Unconditional love...

Hm.

I certainly have that for my children. My parents. One friend. I had it for my wife, but, alas ... she didn't for me -- or maybe I'm fooling myself, maybe I didn't have it for her (still trying to sort some of those issues out for myself). But Unconditional Love for someone I've never met, and who I meet solely because they've kidnapped my father...

moovyphreak

10-22-2002, 05:05 PM

WTF, Blo!

That is one of my favorite Disney flicks!

That was harsh!

But I LOVED the screencaps!

Some of the best yet!

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 05:07 PM

:D

To understand WTF, read the review and this thread.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 05:09 PM

Let's take a look at my favorite Disney film: The Little Mermaid. In that, Ariel changes herself for love. That is a romantic ideal! Eric is nice to her! WOW! Someone deserving of her self-sacrifice.

otisthecat

10-22-2002, 05:15 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
But Unconditional Love for someone I've never met, and who I meet solely because they've kidnapped my father...The guy was trespassing and got locked up. You make it sound as if the Beast hunted him down and took him. I think even young kids would understand that the Beast is not inherently bad, just doesn't trust people or know how to deal with them anymore. I always thought the Beast locking him up was just a way of showing that this is what everyone expects of him so fine he will act that way.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 05:17 PM

Right. Okay. It wasn't exactly a kidnapping. It was a man lost in the forest, beset upon by wolves, fleeing for his life behind the safety of the Beast's fence. Looking for help and shelter. Open door. Inviting talking candlesticks, warm fire. Serving him tea out of cups that get tickled by his moustache...

And then WHAM in a locked cellar door.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 05:18 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
In our world, however, far too many people hold to the "fantasy" when it comes to love and romance. I simply do not wish to introduce my daughter to the idea that she should put up with the Beast for the sake of the true spirit within. Instead, she should find a partner who has already developed his sense of kindness and compassion -- link up with that and make a happy life. Why choose the struggle?I know I said I wouldn't come back but I had to respond to this post.

First about the central moral of the story:

Beauty & The Beast is a parable on trust. Beast does the things he does not because he is inherently mean-spirited but because he has been abandoned and is all alone in the world.

When Belle can finally accept the despiration of his circumstances, he learns that he can trust her, and therefore open up his heart and mind to her.

It's the same as if you take in a child from the streets into your home. The child isn't necessarily acting out in order to cause you harm. They are angry about their circumstance.

About the realities of relationships and falling in love:

First of all, there are no certainties in love. The soulmate of today can become adversary of tomorrow and the person you pegged as the anti-social loner with the heart of ice can be thawed out once commonalities between your and her/his situation are seen, acknowledged, shared, and understood.

Second of all, when you fall in love, hopefully you fall in love with the whole person. Flaws and all. There is not a soul out there who doesn't have some secret, desire, or inhibition holding them back from complete and utter happiness. If were were all living in innumerable bliss there would be no reason for our existence. No reason for us to continue to push forward and discover new things to make us fulfill out desire for understanding.

otisthecat

10-22-2002, 05:21 PM

I thought I did a pretty good job explaining the lock up scenario. Alas I think I'm done defending this movie, The Little Mermaid is a much better film anyway.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 05:30 PM

Women: you have my permission to fall in love with crack-addicted, alcoholic, assholes. They're good inside. They just need your love.

kittyinjammies

10-22-2002, 05:38 PM

Women: you have my permission to fall in love with crack-addicted, alcoholic, assholes. They're good inside. They just need your love. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Blo! :D

JG-The Song of my Jailer*

10-22-2002, 05:47 PM

Great review Blo. Couldn't disagree more in alot of ways but that's still some damned fine writing. And thanks for standing up on account of us "crack-addicted, alcoholic, assholes." We truly do just need the lovin'. Now come to poppa, bitches.

Damien Ruud

10-22-2002, 05:47 PM

Tale as old as Blofeld:
Women: you have my permission to fall in love with crack-addicted, alcoholic, assholes. They're good inside. They just need your love.Yes, and that is exactly the universe presented to you in Walt Disney's Beauty & The Beast.

Beast, refuse of the methadone clinic, traps Belle in order to get ransom money off her father to buy some smack.

Lumiere tries to form an intervention but is summarily turned into a golden crackpipe.

DANGEROUS

Rath/Brendan

10-22-2002, 06:28 PM

My favorite Disney Film is the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Even though I haven't seen it in a while, I think that the presents the same story as B&B only closer to the way things SHOULD be, according to Blofeld. I.e., Quasimodo falls in love with Esmerlada because she's nice to me--er, him.

Me, I love it because it's got some of the best action sequences in a Disney film. And that scene where Quasimodo carries Esmerlada in his arms up the cathdreal and cries "Sanctuary" while the camera pulls around...that's fucking GREAT. Fucking GREAT.

And the Kevin Klein-Tom Hulce chemstiry is also fantastic.

But enough about Hunchback.

Burke

10-22-2002, 07:10 PM

Most fairy tales (in their original, pure form) involve very dark imagery and usually depict humanity at it's grungiest or most despicable. The Disney-fication of some of these stories tones down the original themes, but sometimes the theme itself is just dark. Such is BATB.

I bought it because I (and my wife) liked it, but it may be off limits to my future children unless I can discuss it with them as they watch.

moovyphreak

10-22-2002, 07:31 PM

I agree with Burke here on the whole fairy tales depict humans in proper form.

Plus, Damien Ruud's long post above talks about how Beast comes around once he realizes he is not alone in the world. The song "Something There" even elaborates on this whole story arc. Belle is offended by the harsh attitude of the beast and if you remember the chest of drawers talking to her after he demands she come to dinner and explain Beast's situation. He's angry that he was transformed into a beast, but it was his vanity that put him in his current situation.

moovyphreak

10-22-2002, 07:33 PM

So, Ernst, after having read your review and all your comments here on the boards, I am still confused why you are offended by this movie, as it tells a story of true human emotion (including betrayal and desire.)

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 07:47 PM

Because it is reprehensible to encourage the notion in our young women that they should stick by an abusive man due to the mistaken notion that their love can change them.

Avalon

10-22-2002, 08:21 PM

I loved this movie. I understand where Damien is coming from (great post, btw) and Blofeld makes some very good, though opposing, viewpoints. A two hour movie does not a monster make, but
choosing a lifetime commitment in an effort to change an abusive person is just insane. In the end, it comes down to you give what you can. If they don't snap into reality, move the fuck on. Life's too short. Share it with someone worthy of you. Why little girls are bread to be such nurturers still makes me scratch my head sometimes and want to kick my OWN ass.

Blunt

10-22-2002, 09:00 PM

If I recall correctly, the transormation of The Beast into a pretty boy was in the original novel. No idea about the abusive behavior though. I certainly never viewed the film that way.

But I wonder Blo, do you allow your daughter to watch Pretty Woman?

Avalon

10-22-2002, 09:07 PM

Virgil 'Blunt' Abrizza:
If I recall correctly, the transormation of The Beast into a pretty boy was in the original novel. No idea about the abusive behavior though. I certainly never viewed the film that way.

But I wonder Blo, do you allow your daughter to watch Pretty Woman?Blunt, in regards to abusive behavior, I was referring to his cruelty to everyone around him because he couldn't accept what he had become. I got a little carried away there. :)

Blunt

10-22-2002, 09:16 PM

Actually, my comment about the abusive behavior was in regards to Blo's review, I think it's the term he used.

Blofeld

10-22-2002, 09:43 PM

I don't allow myself to watch Pretty Woman.

Jason Pollock

10-22-2002, 09:50 PM

Avalon:
Why little girls are bread to be such nurturers still makes me scratch my head sometimes and want to kick my OWN ass.You should kick your own ass for stating that Paprika Smear made with anything like a good post.

Beauty and the Beast is more flawed than Matt gets close to dealing with.

I've myself have always loved how the kindly townsfolk contribute to that sweet opening number about the really beautiful girl who is fucking weird because SHE READS BOOKS.

Here's an ENTIRE TOWN THAT OSTRACIZES A GIRL SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE CHOOSES TO BE INTELLIGENT!

That's an excellent message...

And I simply adore the notion that Gaston is a comically overbearing Special Ed kid for the entire feature...until such time as the film demands a positively venomous villain in the true Disney mold - then they muss up his hair, slit his eyes, grit his teeth and put a blade in his hands.

Sixty minutes of clueless dork...30 seconds of malevolent psycho - just because we're at the right point in the running time - fucking sloppy.

They did this because they know that, as portrayed in the film, Gaston is stupid - not evil - and if The Beast killed him mearly because he's an out of touch dumbass - then the film would be advocating the death of stupid people -

Which to me personally, IS an excellent message - but if I can't be right for believing so - then Disney can't be right, either.

So they show that he's bloodthirsty in his last few moments, and we have a reason to drop him.

Thing is, we've had a reason to drop The Beast the entire time - but the TABLEWARE keeps telling us that the snarling psycho is just misunderstood!

Fact is, these whimsical, wonderful fables that fill our hearts - and our chidren's hearts - with magic - and teach us all such valuable lessons are only slightly less accurate in their depictions of male/female interraction than fucking porno.

At least in porno, women can often be seen in aggressive, dominant roles. They can somtimes command, demand, or dominate.

Disney girls are always pliant dipshits with pretty hair.

Disney Princesses hope that someday their Prince will come.

Porn Princesses MAKE them.

Oh, and OF COURSE Blofeld doesn't show his TODDLER Pretty Woman, Bluntmatt. Is that Pot Logic, man? How did you make that leap?

Animated fable for children VS. adult themed film about prostitute - yeah, that's not apples and fucking hand grenades, is it?

But back to Rudd-

I am so positively sick of coddling stupid people on these boards and everywhere else. Fuck you if you don't get it. Fuck you if you attack or cast aspersions on one of the good ones.

Matt is one of the good ones, Paprika. Who the fuck are you?

You say it's just his opinion, and in the end it's unimportant?

Well, let's put it to a vote.

All the people here willing to buy the opinion of someone who's lived some shit...who's shared with us a reality and a life and a personal stuggle...who we know puts great thought and wit into his words...who never ceases to be there for the chewers...

...before they buy the opinion of..."some guy" - raise your muthafuckin' hand.

You see mine?

Yeah you do.

The 'Feld's review is dead on, and makes me feel as though I was lenient on my Disney DVD "Classic".

And if you don't like it - tough shit. His is the official CHUD Review. Enjoy.

Jason Pollock

10-22-2002, 09:58 PM

And Avalon - my riff on your post was the only thing I wrote that was remotely comical there - I just needed an in, and the "kick my own ass" line was cute.

But you're right - a world that breeds Cosmo girls needs to breed them young. If corporate America plants the seeds early, we can engineer Trailer Trash Geisha Girls by the age of twelve.

I've got a niece who's ugly ass, snaggletoothed twat of a mother wants to put in beauty pageants. This pig tells tells a four year old girl that she's GETTING FAT.

In this day, there are still moron moms that tell their daughters to find a rich prince, and don't let go - no matter how poorly he treats you.

Beauty and the Beast is a love poem to every female who's ever uttered the words, "Well, he hits me sometimes - but it's just because he loves me..."

Richard Dickson

10-22-2002, 09:59 PM

Jason Pollock:
Thing is, we've had a reason to drop The Beast the entire time - but the TABLEWARE keeps telling us that the snarling psycho is just misunderstood!And don't forget the ulterior motive of not being human again unless the Beast finds someone to love them. You could argue Lumiere and company are acting out of purely selfish self-interest.

Disney Princesses hope that someday their Prince will come.

Porn Princesses MAKE them.You'd better make this your sig, because if you don't, I sure as hell will. Brilliant.

Jason Pollock

10-22-2002, 10:02 PM

Go with it, Poxy.

Richard Dickson

10-22-2002, 10:10 PM

It is done.

Michael Rabattino

10-22-2002, 10:41 PM

Good God that quote rules.....

Matt Goldberg

10-22-2002, 11:18 PM

Alright, there is a fine line between interesting opinion and full-blown cynicism.

I've myself have always loved how the kindly townsfolk contribute to that sweet opening number about the really beautiful girl who is fucking weird because SHE READS BOOKS.

Here's an ENTIRE TOWN THAT OSTRACIZES A GIRL SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE CHOOSES TO BE INTELLIGENT!

That's an excellent message... Yes, and the message is "Don't always go with the crowd". We're not supposed to like the idiotic townfolk. It's not like Belle succumbs to their wishes and burns her books.

And I simply adore the notion that Gaston is a comically overbearing Special Ed kid for the entire feature...until such time as the film demands a positively venomous villain in the true Disney mold - then they muss up his hair, slit his eyes, grit his teeth and put a blade in his hands.

Sixty minutes of clueless dork...30 seconds of malevolent psycho - just because we're at the right point in the running time - fucking sloppy.

They did this because they know that, as portrayed in the film, Gaston is stupid - not evil - and if The Beast killed him mearly because he's an out of touch dumbass - then the film would be advocating the death of stupid people -

Which to me personally, IS an excellent message - but if I can't be right for believing so - then Disney can't be right, either.

So they show that he's bloodthirsty in his last few moments, and we have a reason to drop him. While I'll agree that the transistion from dumbass to psycho is a bit quick, the film never hides that Gaston is a jerk who likes to kill stuff. Well, when he sees that the woman he wants showing love for what he likes to kill, it's not that big of a jump.

Thing is, we've had a reason to drop The Beast the entire time - but the TABLEWARE keeps telling us that the snarling psycho is just misunderstood!

Fact is, these whimsical, wonderful fables that fill our hearts - and our chidren's hearts - with magic - and teach us all such valuable lessons are only slightly less accurate in their depictions of male/female interraction than fucking porno.

At least in porno, women can often be seen in aggressive, dominant roles. They can somtimes command, demand, or dominate.

Disney girls are always pliant dipshits with pretty hair. Okay, the tableware has its own selfish motives, but if I was going to be stuck as a the toilet for the rest of my life I'd be telling that bitch to go show that beast some lovin' so I can change back.

You have an interesting logic Pollock. So rather than rent Beauty and the Beast for a child, who I sincerely doubt has this level of perception and world-weary cyncism we have here on the boards, I should rent the young girl porn. At least sometimes the women in porn get to be in control before they take it up the ass. I would much rather have Belle, a girl who has overwhelming kindness, stands up for herself (she does except when she goes rooting through Beast's private things), confident, and follows her own road, be a heroine to a young girl rather than the star of Ass Munchers 5.

Disney Princesses hope that someday their Prince will come.

Porn Princesses MAKE them Yes, you're very clever and funny. But it doesn't help your argument.

And if you don't like it - tough shit. His is the official CHUD Review. Enjoy. Actually, that's why we have the boards. The man can dislike Blofeld's review as much as he likes (anything personal about Blofeld or anyone else is off limits and he's been called on that). Don't like the fact that people can respond to the "official CHUD review"? Tough shit.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-22-2002, 11:21 PM

Jason may I shake your hand? That rant was a thing of beauty. And I'm beginning to think that Blo was right, but I don't want to pull a Rath. wink

I didn't think about all of the messages that movie seems to send which J most aptly points out. Course its been a while since I've watched it.

In any case you guys have done a great job of persuasion and Damien has persuaded me that he's an ass. Good night and God bless.

Rath/Brendan

10-22-2002, 11:59 PM

What is pulling a Rath, exactly?

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 01:59 AM

uh-oh, i'm not a good one...must mean i'm a bad one

General Zod

10-23-2002, 02:00 AM

Great review, Blo!

With the exception of three, (Peter Pan, Lady & the tramp, Dumbo) I have never had no use for the animated Disney prop machine so this is a refreshing change.

I have always hated "The Little Mermaid" for similar reasons.

The main character becoming stupid all for her man.

Jason Pollock

10-23-2002, 03:24 AM

Damien Ruud:
uh-oh, i'm not a good one...must mean i'm a bad oneYep. You're a cock. Now accept it and move on.

Blunt

10-23-2002, 05:16 AM

Well I'm not intimate with Blo as you seem to be Jason, so it might have got by me that his daughter was still a toddler. And it's not really a lapse in logic, I mereley mentioned Pretty Woman because, for me, it vehicles the same kind of twisted message to little girls that Blo sees in Beauty and the Beast.

Avalon

10-23-2002, 05:42 AM

Jason, I was glad to assist. :) I'll consider changing "bread" to bred, if you'll tell me WTF is Paprika Chicken, babeeeee? LOL

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-23-2002, 08:33 AM

RathBandu: Gone Rogue:
What is pulling a Rath, exactly?A full on reversal in the face of scorn, a la <a href="http://chud.nexcess.net/board/ubbhtml/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=000197" target="_blank">http://chud.nexcess.net/board/ubbhtml/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=000197</a> . Please take no offense (thus the smiley). S'ok to change your mind you just seem to do it a lot. Have the courage of your convictions.

Jason Pollock

10-23-2002, 11:57 AM

Virgil 'Blunt' Abrizza:
I mereley mentioned Pretty Woman because, for me, it vehicles the same kind of twisted message to little girls that Blo sees in Beauty and the Beast.You're absolutely right.

Julia says she wants the fairy tale.

I think Beauty and the Beast IS the fairy tale she wants.

Michael Rabattino

10-23-2002, 12:06 PM

But wait, don't forget <a href="http://chud.nexcess.net/board/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=001234&p=" target="_blank">this</a> gem.

Z-Man

10-23-2002, 12:31 PM

Coming in late, but just wanted to tell Blofeld that he's echoed my wife's rants on B&B almost word for word. And Cinderella ain't much better.

Boomstick

10-23-2002, 12:35 PM

good review. i'm glad the over-praised 'beauty and the beast' finally got kicked in the nuts.

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 12:43 PM

Jason Pollock:
Damien Ruud:
uh-oh, i'm not a good one...must mean i'm a bad oneYep. You're a cock. Now accept it and move on.I was being facetious Mr. Roboto. If it makes you feel any better I will rescind any comments which may have implied that Blofeld is the worst father in the history of the world. Because that was so discernable entailed by them...

JG-The Song of my Jailer*

10-23-2002, 01:30 PM

I know this is a good review because this marks at least the third time I’ve read it. But less and less does it feel like the impassioned statement of a loving father (of which, I have no doubt, you are). Maybe I’m just bringing my own baggage into things, but the tone of this review has taken a turn towards the plea of a jilted lover. It seems to me that this is more about the scorned Prince than the well being of the Princess. Again, maybe it’s just my experience that has colored this thing but I can’t help wonder if this is not about ensuring your daughter grows up with a decent and proper view of love, so much as it’s about her not growing up to be the type of woman capable of breaking a tender heart in exchange for the “affections” of a scoundrel. It’s an important distinction to be made. I do believe that there are some wonderful (albeit, terribly flawed) messages to be gleaned from this film. They may need to be sanitized through some sort of parental filter but that shouldn’t be any big deal. Maybe watch it with her when she’s a little older and a discussion on its’ merits/flaws would actually take. Or don’t watch it ever again. You’re the parent, it’s obviously your call. But I just wanted to question the fact who you were protecting here. Your child or yourself?

Blofeld

10-23-2002, 01:51 PM

Thanks, Japanese. I simply don't understand your post. I'd like to.

The Beast isn't "jilted" in the film. He gets the girl ... it's the manner in which the fairy tale ideal is presented, the message that could be taught to young women -- young women who are already in danger from societal messaging, that I object to.

If you're referring to my own personal problems of late, they don't factor (I'll admit, at least consciously) in my opinions of the film. My ire is directed at The Beauty and the Beast's message to my daughter, to any daughter.

I do not wish her to expend the energy LOVING someone because she believes that all that person needs to change IS her love. I don't want her subscribing to the notion that abuse is okay, in any form, for any reason. I don't see how that has anything to do with my impending divorce.

Oh, and my opinion on this film was formed prior to my separation/divorce. Prior to my time in the hospital. Prior to my being "jilted." I tried to approach this viewing for the review with a clear slate, to give the film a chance ... and my problems were still there. So I wrote about them.

Charlie Brigden

10-23-2002, 01:54 PM

Regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I just want to say this was a really really good review, Blo.

JG-The Song of my Jailer*

10-23-2002, 02:04 PM

You pretty much got it Blo, though it wasn't your divorce I was necesarily factoring in. And it wasn't the Beast as jilted lover (you're right, he isn't) angle I was taking. It's the fact that most of us have been madly in love with someone at one time or the other, only to be rejected for some scruffy looking asshole. We're not the Prince, we're not the dark, handsome enigma of a man, hell, we're not even the scruffy looking asshole. All too often we're the chumps sidekick, and that's why we don't understand why certain women view this as romance. Because we have no place in it. It just seemed like that type of hurt (and not protection) that was being projected.

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 02:39 PM

Look, for all intents and purposes nothing Blofeld (or any other person for that matter) has ever written in a post, comment, or review outside of this thread has ever provoked the sort of response which I produced in response to this review.

If any personal mudslinging has occured it is because I find Blofeld's moralistic point of view in and only in the universe of thisparticular film and review to be unwarranted, off base, and reactionary.

Blofeld I want you to ask yourself these following questions. If my daughter can't handle Beauty & The Beast, how will she be able to handle the real world? If my daughter can't ever be allowed to witness, therefore contemplate the very relevant, albeit in this case encased in a fictional setting, social and relational realities depicted herein how will she gain both the armor and the ammunition to detect and defend herself against possible parallel curcumstances in her life?

If she's not allowed to realize that humans aren't all completely static, fixed two-dimension beings, isn't she going to be selling herself short by entering into relationships with men who may be superficially warm and supportive but completely shallow and abusive once the new sheen of a relationship wears off?

Are you going to constantly control the flow of influence, emotion, and experience she receives so she only knows the positive aspects of human nature only to find when she is confronted with an individual who is possibly abusive that she won't be able to comprehend or understand his or her actions?

We live in a very real world. Childhood neuro-physiology is designed to tone down the amount of raw reality we receive, and this screen is gradually lifted as we grow more mature and aware of our surroundings. If your daughter isn't able to absorb this extremely diluted slice of the possible reality of life at this stage then when will she learn the truth about human reality?

And the last question in which I hope to put the shoe on the other foot. Why not, if you are so concerned about the negative message being sent out to young women by Beauty & The Beast, use the film as a tool to show what not to do or fall into? If you are so ready to assume that she will lift a negative stereotype from the film, why not use some positive reinforcement to turn the film into something to be despised and not fantasized about?

Burke

10-23-2002, 02:49 PM

It's usually not the most effective bit of parenting to try to explain a negative message while the message itself bakes your child a large chocolate cake of happiness through the magic of song, dance, and utensils.

otisthecat

10-23-2002, 02:56 PM

General Zod Vs. Ratner:
I have always hated "The Little Mermaid" for similar reasons.

The main character becoming stupid all for her man.Actually Blo said Little Mermaid was one of his favorite Disney films. While I like both movies I think Little Mermaid is probably more sexist then B&TB. Ariel(sp) changes everything about herself after seeing the main guy once at least Beast and Belle had a period of dislike, mutual understanding and then friendship before the love story sets in. I said it before but here it is again, I think the friendship that develops in B&TB is more important to the story than the falling in love aspect.

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 03:01 PM

Burke:
It's usually not the most effective bit of parenting to try to explain a negative message while the message itself bakes your child a large chocolate cake of happiness through the magic of song, dance, and utensils.Ahhhhh, but the message will eventually be found by the child in someway or another, in some book or film which the parent will not be able to censor.

It would be better to air the concern directly then try to withhold it in the hopes that it will never be found. Which it ultimately will.

And if in fact Blofeld seeks to control to such an extent the material his daughter is exposed to, he has just as much power to instill a lesson for his daughter to learn from.

I'm not sure if Blofeld has sole custody of his children, but nevertheless children are constantly attracted to new sources of stimulus. That is, if they are not being kept in their rooms under lock and key. (Not at all implying that this is what Blofeld does.)

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 03:03 PM

otisthecat:

The main character becoming stupid all for her man.Actually Blo said Little Mermaid was one of his favorite Disney films. While I like both movies I think Little Mermaid is probably more sexist then B&TB. Ariel(sp) changes everything about herself after seeing the main guy once at least Beast and Belle had a period of dislike, mutual understanding and then friendship before the love story sets in. I said it before but here it is again, I think the friendship that develops in B&TB is more important to the story than the falling in love aspect.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Exactly

Jason Pollock

10-23-2002, 03:20 PM

japaneseguitar:
...some scruffy looking asshole...Who's scruffy-lookin'?

And just for your information, I'm the brash, handsome rogue...

Jason Pollock

10-23-2002, 03:32 PM

Damien Ruud
[QB]Look, for all intents and purposes nothing Blofeld...has ever written in a post, comment, or review outside of this thread has ever provoked the sort of response which I produced in response to this review.[QB]Holy shit - you brag about being a cock now? Pat yourself on the back...

And you think you've produced a response?

Baby, I've posted Billy Madison-esque gibberish that's made a bigger dent. I'm internationally know like Rob Base.

You're just...Paprika. No deal.

Damien Ruud
[QB]...has ever provoked the sort of response which I produced in response to this review.[QB]Unreal. You are quite the provocateur.

When your amazing writings do what Smilin' Jack's do, or Nick's do, or Django's did - or even MINE (someone so dirt fucking low on the internet movie totem pole as to go nearly unnoticed) - then we'll talk about what a valuable asset you are.

Until then...

Damien Ruud

10-23-2002, 03:43 PM

Jason Pollock:
Damien Ruud
[QB]Look, for all intents and purposes nothing Blofeld...has ever written in a post, comment, or review outside of this thread has ever provoked the sort of response which I produced in response to this review.[QB]Holy shit - you brag about being a cock now? Pat yourself on the back...

And you think you've produced a response?

Baby, I've posted Billy Madison-esque gibberish that's made a bigger dent. I'm internationally know like Rob Base.

You're just...Paprika. No deal.

Damien Ruud
[QB]...has ever provoked the sort of response which I produced in response to this review.[QB]Unreal. You are quite the provocateur.

When your amazing writings do what Smilin' Jack's do, or Nick's do, or Django's did - or even MINE (someone so dirt fucking low on the internet movie totem pole as to go nearly unnoticed) - then we'll talk about what a valuable asset you are.

Until then...Jason will you just get over yourself already. Although I was a little acidic earlier i'm keeping my head down and working through this by posting my responses to the opinions of Blofeld and others in this thread. You can't seem to do anything but flame.

"Amazing Writings"? WTF? When did I ever call myself or anything i've written "amazing"? And when did I need to, in order to get my point across?

And just what did Nick's, Jack's, Blofeld's, or your writing do but produce an opinion. An opinion, which may be cleverly, wittily, and thought-provokingly written, is still just an opinion which can be responded to, agreed, and disagreed with.

I'm not writing to spill my objections on the latest specs for the special edition DVD of "I Am Sam." I'm merely trying to counter Blofeld's outright objections to Beauty & The Beast as a prevelent harbinger of emotional and psychological damage to the world's female population.

DaveB

10-23-2002, 03:48 PM

Interesting idea, there, otis.

Had Beauty and the Beast not become a love story at the end, but a story about the redemptive power of friendship or something, there'd likely be a lot less complaints about poor female role models, etc.

Curious what Blofeld, Jason, and the other antis think about this idea:

As soon as you involve love, it becomes about a pseudo-abusive relationship. If it just involved friendship, it would be about reaching out to a fellow human being, who's grown cold after years of isolation and pain. If you stretch it even further and remove sex from the equation by making Belle another male (non-homosexual), it's a non-issue.

Isn't this double-standard just as insulting to women, as it assumes any woman who would befriend or fall in love with this fellow is weak?

Perhaps the only reason the relationship worked at all is because Belle was strong enough to not become a doormat and to reach out to this guy who's obviously torn up inside, despite his outbursts and such.

Capt. Eucalyptus

10-23-2002, 03:52 PM

Good points DB.

JG-The Song of my Jailer*

10-23-2002, 03:52 PM

- or even MINE (someone so dirt fucking low on the internet movie totem pole as to go nearly unnoticed) -

Nah, that would be me. You're the brash, handsome rogue, remember?

otisthecat

10-23-2002, 04:08 PM

I also think the word abusive is misleading in this case. I implies a relationship that is not there. The Beast doesn't imprison Belle as some sort of toy, he does it because he is the Beast, people are mean to him so he is mean right back. First half hour Beast and Belle don't like each other. Second half hour they learn from each other why they are the way they are and a tentative friendship develops. Third half hour they fall in love because someone always falls in love in a Disney movie. I just don't think kids would take anything more from this movie than the above and maybe a fun song or two.

Jason Pollock

10-23-2002, 04:22 PM

japaneseguitar:
[b]Nah, that would be me. You're the brash, handsome rogue, remember?I AM indeed.

But that doesn't mean you can find my opinion of a film on its one sheet - nor can you catch me on CNN.

Justin L. Bishop

10-23-2002, 06:16 PM

Personally, I love the movie. But hey, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. I applaud Blo for giving his opinion. We need more movie reviewers with the balls to say what they REALLY think about movies (I know for a fact that I've given positive reviews to movies on my own website that other critics have despised).

But I've got to wonder...

Until reading this review, I'd never even considered the "abusive relationship" aspect of the story. So how many grade school-aged girls are going to pick up on that?

Or am I just a dense moron?

<strong>Plus, I don't want my daughter fantasizing about Robby Benson.And who could blame you?

BTW, after hearing this guy talk in interviews on the DVD, I can't help but wonder HOW in the HELL he's got the same voice as the Beast. Might as well have got Michael Jackson to do the voice.

Charlie Brigden

10-23-2002, 07:58 PM

I swear the beast was really voiced by Michael Dorn.

Blofeld

10-23-2002, 08:02 PM

Funny, I had the same thought while watching...

Rath/Brendan

10-23-2002, 08:07 PM

Charles E. Brigden:
I swear the beast was really voiced by Michael Dorn.I think you're right.

Xymog (Mike Toot)

10-25-2002, 02:54 PM

Excellent review, Blo. You had the courage to make people stop and think for a moment, even if they knee-jerk spasmed a response that made as much sense as your average grad-school pseudophilosopher.

And I'm proud that you're working to give your daughter positive messages about herself and her ability to be anything she wants to be, without shackling her mind with fears, fantasies, or other emotionally crippling garbage. There are enough people out there -- like the pseudophilosophers mentioned above -- who are cynical, embittered wonks who want everyone to live in the same dark cave they inhabit. Let her discover the joys of being a child, the joys of being alive, the joys of magic being real. There will be enough time later in life to discover the violence, the sadness, and the despair.

Well done.

voltes5

10-26-2002, 02:59 AM

I just finished reading Blo's review, and I must admit that I felt like giving a knee-jerk response. One such reason is that I quite enjoyed B&TB. I just got the DVD and I'll give it a spin soon and bear in mind Blo's review.

DaveB brought up some excellent points and I will consider it as well while watching the film.

voltes5

10-26-2002, 03:45 PM

I just finished watching the movie while bearing in mind Blo's review. Even before posting my thoughts, I made sure that I re-read the review. Anyway, I know that the low flick score was not based on the "thought-provoking" perspective, but I do want to express my disagreement with it.

The message, I suppose, is intended to be that “beauty is only skin deep” and that one must look deeper to see the true heart and soul of another. Not a bad message, huh? Yep, that no matter if someone kidnaps and imprisons your father, and then you, that no matter how loudly they scream at you, or how forcefully they slam doors in your face, no matter how controlling, no matter how threatening, no matter how downright abusive they are, all you have to do is love them enough and they’ll turn into a prince and you’ll live happily ever after. Good message. Come here, daughter ... let me teach you just how much crap you have to accept in the name of love.

Dangerous.I think this is reading too much into the movie (and I'm a person who deeply read into films' messages and symbolisms). The father was not kidnapped, but was imprisoned for trespassing. As a Beast, he had every right to kill a trespasser (such as in PRESENT DAY America, where we can shoot-to-kill any intruder), but in this case, he was quite lenient with the father's plight.

As far as being "abusive" -- they were NOT in any type of romantic relationship to begin with. Belle was just the trespasser's daughter. That's it. She's a prisoner. But in this case, she's a prisoner who can freely roam the castle except the West Wing. Again, a very lenient sentence -- from a Beast.

Remember, Belle ESCAPED the castle when the Beast scolded her about being in the West Wing where the enchanted flower was. She's no weak-kneed girl, but a girl who takes initiative when she knows that things are not quite rosy.

She escapes -- but then, the Beast RESCUES her.

And that's when a small form of relationship occurs. And it's even in that dreaded Celine Dion song:

Barely even friends, then somebody bends, unexpectedly

In a tumultuous start, both strangers, something happened. Both learn to accept and love each other.

If the story starts off with Belle in a relationship with the Beast and he continues to mistreat and abuse her, then I will agree with your opinion about this "ill-unintentioned message for our youngsters." The thing is, it's NOT there, in my opinion. Furthermore, does the Beast abuse Belle AFTER her rescue?

Before the rescue, she was a prisoner and he was a captor. After the rescue, she and he were both friends.

Despite what seemed to be an impossible match, turned out to be not at all.

THAT is the message of "Beauty & The Beast." There is no underlying message of spousal abuse and foolish love with an abusive husband.

“Beauty and the Beast” may be the most beloved Disney animated film. It may have been nominated for a Best Picture Oscar in 1991. It may have been developed into one of the most successful Broadway musicals of the last several decades... but it is irresponsible film making. My daughter will not see this film again if I have anything to say about it. The message I want her to learn is that her love is a precious thing to be given ONLY to a man who loves her in return, that mutual respect and kindness are prerequisites of such an exchange of love, and that she can kick anyone’s ass who dares attempt the misogynistic ideals this film passes off as normalized courting ritual. Before I continue, I'm speaking from a different perspective. I'm a gay man, and some of you know this. Now, Blo, what if your daughter ends up being a homosexual? Do you see where my question is leading to?

I will return to DaveB's observations:

A Rush of DaveB to the Head:
Had Beauty and the Beast not become a love story at the end, but a story about the redemptive power of friendship or something, there'd likely be a lot less complaints about poor female role models, etc.

Curious what Blofeld, Jason, and the other antis think about this idea:

As soon as you involve love, it becomes about a pseudo-abusive relationship. If it just involved friendship, it would be about reaching out to a fellow human being, who's grown cold after years of isolation and pain. If you stretch it even further and remove sex from the equation by making Belle another male (non-homosexual), it's a non-issue.

Isn't this double-standard just as insulting to women, as it assumes any woman who would befriend or fall in love with this fellow is weak?

Perhaps the only reason the relationship worked at all is because Belle was strong enough to not become a doormat and to reach out to this guy who's obviously torn up inside, despite his outbursts and such.Blo, you are assuming that it's always about SEXUAL LOVE when it involves a woman and a man. I guess if Belle was a man, then it's only PLATONIC FRIENDSHIP that can come out of it. Not that I'm optimistic enough to see a Disney-related film that involved homosexuality (except for stereotypic drawings and mannerisms of secondary characters), but I'm just pointing out that you are actually underestimating children.

The beauty of watching a children's film is that it's worthy of your time to discuss it afterwards. However, the tough part is that YOU found this "ill-unintentioned message." As a parent, you know what's best for your child and no one has the right to tell you what's what.

But as a fellow film lover, I do want to tell you that such an "ill-unintentioned message" is NOT there. I do urge you to give the film another chance and see whether what I've said is completely off-base.