Observation

[CTDeLude]

Is it just me or have we all done and become less spiritual around here?

Oooooh this can't be good.

[Jacob Singer]

Well, you know me. I think being less "spiritual" is a step in the right direction. Human beings waste far too much time and energy on superstiton...

wink

[Chavez]

Hey, I'm as sprititual as ever, man!

....which is to say 'not at all', but I'm not less so! wink

[Jim Pappas/Jabba]

Well CT, there just isn't much to talk about that we haven't beaten to death. Those of us who are spiritual know what it means to us. Those who are not know what that means to them.

[Kronos]

Well then, lets bring things back to a datum of sorts: Would our(human) discovery of a prior civilization on Earth, which was actually alien in origin, prove, disprove, or have no effect on your belief in a Supreme Being?

[Seabass Inna Bun]

No effect. What do alien astronauts have to do with God?

[Kronos]

I don't know. I simply pose the question.

[Kronos]

Refrozen Seabass:
No effect. What do alien astronauts have to do with God?But, what does God have to do with Aliens? If there is a God who created Man, did God also create the Aliens?

[Chavez]

Kronos:
But, what does God have to do with Aliens? If there is a God who created Man, did God also create the Aliens?*swims by, sees tasty looking worm floating on hook*

OK, I'll bite - essentially, finding the remains of an alien culture that stood up to all scrutiny would first off, establish that life exists on other planets, which could cast the whole of the Bible into doubt - as one thinks that God should have probably decided to let the prophets who wrote it know about something important, like, say, the existence of species on other planets.

Not to mention that if they looked nothing like us (which odds are no alien race would/should), but were obviously of a highly developed civilization, would result in one of 3 options:

1 - The Bible lies to us (bzzzzzzt! Wrong answer!)

2 - We're Gods children, these are the children of Satan (be popular on the 700 club)

3 - God created these artifacts when he created the rest of the earth just to test our faith (the deus ex machina of all religious fundamentalists, not realizing that this view would mean that God is really a big asshole).

Of course, none of this is to say that there ISN'T a highly powerful being up there which created us AND the aliens, but would people be willing to run and re-interpret the Bible to account for this view?

Now, if we find these artifacts and it turns out we are DESCENDED from the aliens, whooooooo boy.....

[Jim Pappas/Jabba]

There is a reference in The Bible where Jesus refers to "sheep not of this fold". As a Christian, I KNOW there are alien intelligences in existence within this ENORMOUS universe. Be serious, given the vastness of creation, it would be completely mindless to think we are the only intelligent beings, n'est pas?

I liked the movie, Contact, because the alien who communed with Jodi Foster's character said something that really made a point "We are all We have". Yes, we are.

[Kronos]

Now, if we find these artifacts and it turns out we are DESCENDED from the aliens, whooooooo boy.....
The BINGO scenario in my book.

And yet, the existence of God is not inconsistent with this idea either. But our interpretation of our "faith" would certainly need re-examination.

And perhaps it could explain the phenomenon of Jesus and to a lesser extent Moses.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

It's not a stretch to say humans may have developed an entire belief system(Judeo-Christian in particular) built upon observation of the technological machinations of a visiting alien.

[Seabass Inna Bun]

OK, I'll bite - essentially, finding the remains of an alien culture that stood up to all scrutiny would first off, establish that life exists on other planets, which could cast the whole of the Bible into doubt - as one thinks that God should have probably decided to let the prophets who wrote it know about something important, like, say, the existence of species on other planets.Hah! Good point! Hadn't considered that. It would shoot down all that egocentric business, wouldn't it? Wouldn't affect my beliefs, though: I don't buy all that "Word of God" stuff now, I wouldn't if Vorlons showed up on my door. It might give other people pause for the reasons you suggested, though.

[Burke]

Chavez, Seabass,

You might want to read C. S. Lewis' Space Trilogy for a possible answer to your alien-Bible question. My pithy response to "the Bible doesn't mention aliens therefore the Bible is wrong" is simply to note that the Bible doesn't mention 800 million things (like vaccines, food processors, dildos), and that doesn't validate or invalidate it.

I find no evidence in the Bible that God did or did not create other species aside from the ones on this planet. If you want to debate the line "God created man in his own image" be my guest. I would be shocked if we were alone in the universe, though I don't think that they're on their way here right now or have been here before.

[Chavez]

Kronos
Now, if we find these artifacts and it turns out we are DESCENDED from the aliens, whooooooo boy.....
And yet, the existence of God is not inconsistent with this idea either. But our interpretation of our "faith" would certainly need re-examination.

And perhaps it could explain the phenomenon of Jesus and to a lesser extent Moses.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

It's not a stretch to say humans may have developed an entire belief system(Judeo-Christian in particular) built upon observation of the technological machinations of a visiting alien.Well, given the lack of evidence to as of right now, it might be a stretch;

But I see your point. Think about some of our everyday devices right now and how they might look to some desert resident from about 2000 yrs ago (more in Moses' case): tv, telephone, gun, plastic explosive, airplane - and I haven't even gotten to anything too awful exotic yet!

But the question would really be that even IF evidence was found, how many religious authorities would enter the dialogue in a positive way? to a certain extent, religion is based upon tradition and dogma - and a new dialectic of this sort would have a chance to shatter existing dogmas and render tradition and the authority of church leaders irrelevant.

[Jim Pappas/Jabba]

Chavez, you'd be surprised at how quickly a so called "primitive" could pick up on and understand modern devices. There are perfect examples of this in the present day. One thing I have found from reading the Bible is how sophisticated people were back then. Human social interaction has changed very little over the past 2000 years, and that is why I find the Bible so fascinating a read. We aren't much different from the people of those times.

Based on several passages in the Bible regarding appearances of "angels" and other "men" to the disciples and followers, I do suspect there is an extraterrestrial connection with Jesus, us, and the universe. I suspect in the coming centuries we will not only discover we are not alone in the universe, but we are also physically related to other intelligences, either by appearance or actual genetic makeup. I just hope I'm alive for the first truly public encounter with an ET.

[Chavez]

jabbadonut - powered by flatulence:

Based on several passages in the Bible regarding appearances of "angels" and other "men" to the disciples and followers, I do suspect there is an extraterrestrial connection with Jesus, us, and the universe. I suspect in the coming centuries we will not only discover we are not alone in the universe, but we are also physically related to other intelligences, either by appearance or actual genetic makeup. I just hope I'm alive for the first truly public encounter with an ET.I agree on a few points, mainly that the "angels" etc MAY have been extraterrestrial phenomena, but also, as a skeptic/agnostic, I highly doubt that any other life we may encounter would much resemble humanity; however, if they DO, that in and of itself would in my mind create a definite suspicion that we are either from the same gene stock due to colonization, or that God DID create 2 races of humanity.

Either way, if they're out there, I'd like them to shit or get off the pot and show up already. wink

But my essential belief insofar as the humanistic/religious reaction would be that many fundamentalists and those who may stand to lose influence due to their inflexible interpretations of the Bible would definitely try to turn their following against any sort of evidence of an alien race spawning man - even though an alien race being the forefathers of man casts SOME of the stuff in the Bible into doubt but doesn't necessarily discredit the Judeo-Christian ethos.

[Jim Pappas/Jabba]

Any believer who would reject an encounter with an alien intelligence, or somehow lose their faith (or question it) because of such an encounter, really doesn't have a true understanding of Christianity, or the Bible. There is nothing that I personally have found in any of my religious studies that talks about human beings somehow being the only children of God. God created the WHOLE UNIVERSE, not just the Earth. It is the ultimate height of hubris for us to think we are the only manifestation of creation that thinks.

[Kronos]

Then do the Aliens believe in the same God the Christians, Muslims, Jews and most other Human beliefs do?

[Chavez]

jabbadonut - powered by flatulence:
It is the ultimate height of hubris for us to think we are the only manifestation of creation that thinks.Well, it IS a different century, but Copernicus was facing execution for saying the Earth orbited the sun.....

And if "man was created in God's image", what if aliens bear no resemblance to us - say the flying saucer lands and some Cthulhu-looking chap steps out? Is that an indication that they are not of God (which by extension would probably mean they are of the devil), an indication that God has many faces, or an indication that evolution follows its own course, with no hand of God evident?

And the crux of my argument is not so much an issue with your beliefs personally jabba- you seem to have a very liberal Christian interpretation, which I wholeheartedly applaud - I'm wondering what the reaction of fundamentalists and church heirarchies would be.

[Chavez]

Kronos:
Then do the Aliens believe in the same God the Christians, Muslims, Jews and most other Human beliefs do?And if not, do we lump them in with Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus as "the devil"? wink

[Seabass Inna Bun]

Not quite right regarding Copernicus.

"Nicholas Copernicus was born February 19, 1473, in Poland. He entered the University of Krakow in 1491, then in 1495 went to Padua and studied medicine. In 1500 he was called to Rome and took the chair of mathematics there. He began to believe that the earth went round the sun about 1507 and from that time until his death worked, more or less intermittently, on his exposition of his theory. He delayed the publication of this exposition because of fear of being accused of heresy. Copernicus died May 24, 1543, just as his book was published. The knowledge of the time was not sufficient to prove his theory; his great argument for it was from its simplicity as compared to the epicycle hypothesis."

Then Galileo picked up the ball and ran with it by showing that Jupiter has moons orbiting it rather than the earth. Just so ya know.

Carry on.

[Will]

Kronos:
Then do the Aliens believe in the same God the Christians, Muslims, Jews and most other Human beliefs do?kronos,

Do you think all the religions you mentioned believe in the SAME GOD? Wouldn't they believe in seperate Gods? I know the belief is in one god, but don't the religions you mention each believe that the one God is their God?

I think they all believe that if they are right, then the Gods believed in by the other religions will all be proven to be false Gods and therefore not exist.

It sort of sounds like an election. Whoever has the most people who believe in their God, win the election and that is what God will be.

[Kronos]

Well, the thing is...most of the religions recognize that the Supreme Being -God, in the normal parlayance- is The One God. But the problem is that they/we all interpret God in different ways. Interesting that Muslims believe in the same God that the Jews and Christians do, the Jews believe in the same God that the Muslims and Christians do, but the Christians have a problem saying they believe in the same God the Jews and Muslims do.

The subject of God is interesting in that there is two ways of seeing the whole thing:
One God/Many Worlds
One World/Many Gods

I choose the former. If there is one Supreme Being it/he/she is the same God for the Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and the Martians.

But do the Martians believe in God? Is the belief in a Supreme Being a unique phenomena to Humans?

And if there is a God why has he lost his sense of humor?

[Keeper of the Grove]

I have often wondered who the Gods think God is.

The universes are vast I am small (but only in comparison to John Holmes), how in the hell am I supposed to figure this stuff out. I was raised catholic until I was 14 when I was rebaptized as a Baptist, then I joined the Marines and became a druid (it just makes more sense to me). When you're little it is easy to believe, you know what your told, but when you get older and jaded a tad the world is just so different. I am still surprised I believe anything at all.

Speaking of belief, what a test of faith the Catholics are having right now. How many times have you heard jokes or stories about priests who liked little kids too much? This has been going on for a while. I feel sorry for the priests who are really devoted, who really would give up marriage, sex, kids and grand kids to serve their God, but if they would just stop making it such a superhuman task to stay a catholic priest it might start attracting a different kind of person. Same thing goes for Nuns. I have never met a more wretched bitch than a Nun I once knew, but I know plenty more that are the nicest people on the planet. I have also heard stories about Nuns that aren't quite right in the head the same way that some of those priests that I mentioned aren't. If you think that it is not as rampant as the news makes it out to be - here is something that you may not know: 14 priests in New Hampshire have either come forward of have been discovered for child molesting. That is just recently, and New Hampshire is a small state. One or two may have been expected (unfortunately), but fourteen makes me want to puke.

Why in the fuck did I bring this up?

[Kronos]

Priests should be allowed marriage. There is obviously no proof that celibacy makes for a more spiritual individual.

Besides, there's nothing Biblical about celibacy. The Catholic church came up with the idea to stop their priests from carrying on their marriages in order to keep them -the priests- manageable. You can't send a priest on a mission to some far-off land if he's dragging around a family. And if you can't send priests to far-away lands you can't get new converts, etc. etc. etc.

Good?
Bad?

God?
Hmmmmmm...

Good management technique though. Can't dispute that.

[Chavez]

Refrozen Seabass:
Not quite right regarding Copernicus.

"Nicholas Copernicus began to believe that the earth went round the sun about 1507 and from that time until his death worked, more or less intermittently, on his exposition of his theory. He delayed the publication of this exposition because of fear of being accused of heresy. Copernicus died May 24, 1543, just as his book was published.

Then Galileo picked up the ball and ran with it by showing that Jupiter has moons orbiting it rather than the earth. Just so ya know.

Carry on.Well, it HAS been a while since I studied Renaissance history.....

[Chavez]

Kronos:
And if there is a God why has he lost his sense of humor?Well, we know it was intact about 4500 yrs ago when he created the platypus.....maybe his hemmorhoids have been acting up?

[Kronos]

My point exactly.

[Jim Pappas/Jabba]

It is all very simple, really. God is "that which is unexplainable, relative to the understanding of existence." God is not a "he" or a "she" or an "it". God is the conceptualization of creation.

The mere fact that I am typing this on this keyboard indicates there is some form of what is defined as reality. This form is merely one of many. All of the many make up the whole, and the whole eventually defines God.

This is the message that Jesus tried to get across to people all those years ago. That he declared himself "the Son of God", was his way of saying "that which is unknowable" reached out and touched us.

Why? Because. The why isn't as important as the message, which is so simple as to be beyond my comprehension why so few grasp it.

The message? Love thy neighbor as thyself. Love your fellow human lifeform as you do yourself.

Is that really so hard to understand?

[Kronos]

Then what is the Matrix?

[Nick Nunziata]

Kronos:
Well then, lets bring things back to a datum of sorts: Would our(human) discovery of a prior civilization on Earth, which was actually alien in origin, prove, disprove, or have no effect on your belief in a Supreme Being?I think that's the best explanation for a supreme being.

[Jason Pollock]

Kronos:
Then what is the Matrix?A slow-moving kung-foo flick...

[Will]

Jason! He didn't mean it Neo, I swear he didn't. Sorry Trinity, he was joking. Er wait. Those are movie characters, Oh Okay. I know you dislike it, but "Slow moving?' They take Keanu Reeves from Keanu to being "the one" in under two hours. Now how do you explain that?

Wow! Maybe he really IS the one!