bye bye Dutch right winger [Archive]

devincf

05-06-2002, 01:15 PM

What a shame.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (CNN) -- Maverick Dutch right-wing politician Pim Fortuyn has been shot and critically wounded.

Fortuyn was shot in the head three times as he was going to a Dutch national radio station in Hilversum, the Associated Press reported.

A spokesman for Fortuyn's Leefbaar Nederland (Livable Netherlands) said he was not expected to survive the attack.

No information was immediately available about the assailant or whether the attacker was arrested.

Dutch television said Fortuyn, who was notorious for his anti-immigration and anti-Islamic views, was shot at close range.

"I saw Pim Fortuyn lying on the ground with a bullet wound in his head," said television reporter Dave Abspoel.

Fortuyn's rise mirrors a right-wing resurgence in several European countries, lately highlighted by the anti-immigrant Jean Marie Le Pen's surprise showing in the first round of French presidential elections. He was soundly defeated in Sunday's run-off vote by incumbent Jacques Chirac.

Fortuyn's platform seemed out of place in the Netherlands, which has a reputation for liberalism.

It was the first country to legalise gay marriages, regulate prostitution, approve and control euthanasia, and tolerate the over-the-counter sale of marijuana in hundreds of "coffee shops."

Though tolerant of such subcultures, Fortuyn's popularity has exposed a deep vein of suspicion of immigrants in Europe's most densely populated country, about two million of whose 16 million people are not native Dutch. About 800,000 are Muslims.

He was founder of Leefbaar Nederland, which stunned the Netherlands in March when it won 35 percent of the vote for city council seats in Rotterdam, the second-largest city, The Associated Press reports.

Fortuyn advocates a ban on immigration and has criticised Islam as a "backward culture."

Although he no longer leads the party, polls project that it could win 24 seats in the 150-member parliament in May 15 national elections.

Tony Ryan

05-06-2002, 01:36 PM

Hate to advoacte death or shooting...

DaveB

05-06-2002, 01:53 PM

Tony Ryan:
Hate to advoacte death or shooting...Then don't.

BullCow

05-06-2002, 01:54 PM

This guy should have been defeated in the polls, not with a bullet. It is a shame. This Dutch guy should have had the chance to meet the same fate as Le Pen.

Tony Ryan

05-06-2002, 01:54 PM

I didn't.

The guy was an ass, and I am glad he is gone, course death isn't the best way to take care of it.

But it happened and I can't say I feel to bad about it.

Kevin Matchstick

05-06-2002, 01:58 PM

There is no reason to celebrate this man's murder.

devincf

05-06-2002, 01:59 PM

Who's celebrating?

Doesn't mean I feel bad either.

Tony Ryan

05-06-2002, 02:00 PM

I'm not celebrating it, he should of been defeated instead of killed. I just don't feel bad.

Kevin Matchstick

05-06-2002, 02:05 PM

Just think its kind of fucked to shrug when people pay the ferryman. My hang-up, I guess. Plus, this is par for the course on the conservative vs. liberal bullshit that's been taking place on these boards lately. Now were putting notches in our bed posts when someone from the opposite side takes a dirt nap? That to me is fucked. Like I said, my hang-up.

devincf

05-06-2002, 02:07 PM

I think being a racist transcends right vs left debate. And his views on Islam make him that in my book.

Kevin Matchstick

05-06-2002, 02:12 PM

Yeah, but no matter how you slice it, dev posting this does not transcend that "debate" - if we can even call it that at this point.

Too bad a person was murdered.

imported_Adam Warren

05-06-2002, 02:17 PM

The man is only far-right by Dutch standards. He'd probably be a Democrat in the US of A.

devincf

05-06-2002, 02:36 PM

OK, I don't understand - if I think it's no pity that a racist xenophobe politician who is riding the wave of right wing resurgance in Europe is killed - I shouldn't make my opinion known?

Kevin Matchstick

05-06-2002, 02:46 PM

Hey, you're not Kirby! You tricked me, you bastard. And, dev. I'm certainly not trying to silence you. Say what you want, feel how you want. I just don't like seeing people get ended for their views, no matter how stupid and ignorant.

devincf

05-06-2002, 02:59 PM

And I wouldn't end someone for their views.. but I don't always feel so bad about it when it does happen.

Kevin Matchstick

05-06-2002, 03:06 PM

Well, there's the difference. I do feel bad when it happens.

DaveB

05-06-2002, 03:43 PM

Adam Warren:
The man is only far-right by Dutch standards. He'd probably be a Democrat in the US of A.Interestingly enough, I just read that Fortuyn is/was openly gay. A high profile gay political leader with a conservative bent. The Dutch definitely have their own thing going.

Burke

05-06-2002, 10:21 PM

At least Kevin Matchstick is ethical and fair.

Seahawk

05-06-2002, 10:26 PM

A life is a life no matter what.

This man appears to have done nothing wrong than have managed to piss off people and be on the wrong side at the time.

He died. His life ended and any chance for that to continue and perhaps change or become something else is over.

Ever heard of the sancitity of life?

Jim Pappas/Jabba

05-06-2002, 10:39 PM

Sanctity of life? From abortion rights supporters? They don't understand the concept. I knew nothing of this Dutch politician, but he was assassinated for his views. The same as JFK, MLK Jr., and RFK were killed for theirs. Another example of anarchy v.s. civilized behavior. I am just sick.

imported_Adam Warren

05-06-2002, 11:12 PM

Jabba, shining pinnacle of civilized behavior, delivers unto us a penetrating moral lesson.

Seabass Inna Bun

05-06-2002, 11:16 PM

Now Let's Roll. :D

devincf

05-06-2002, 11:22 PM

Then I guess none of you believe in the assasination of foreign leaders?

Tony Ryan

05-06-2002, 11:23 PM

Good call...

I bet Jabba thinks we need to kill Sadam, wow but I guess that's different

Seahawk

05-07-2002, 01:37 AM

I am really Devin:
Then I guess none of you believe in the assasination of foreign leaders?Two different things.

We WERE talking about the murder of a life.

Now, we are talking about something that is not black and white and has many grey areas that IF we were to get into a discussion, it would turn ugly. Because there is no simple answer.

Papa Trouter served on Toast

05-07-2002, 01:51 AM

There is most certainly a difference.

On one hand, you have a politition who was murdered for views.

On the other, the possible assassination of a political leader of a war-like country.

Now, here is the difference.

Saddam has proven himself to be a killer. He is more then willing to take his country into a war that would devistate all. He has proved he hasnt given a care, but constantly fighting the rules placed down by the UN (like the no fly zones). He has proven he will use biological weapons on forign troops regardless of the Geneva convention. He has proved he will destroy everything in his path if he is going ot loose, no matter what the cost (remember all those burning oil wells?)

He has tried to develop nuclear weapons, and could still succeed (Im sorry for Washington, in that case).

HE has tried andprobobly succeeeded in producing mass biological weapons. If he wanted to get into it, he could probobly kill thousands, or tens of thousands, with what he has in his arsenal.

Even better, he has proven beyond any doubt that he will move again, and cause death and destruction. So yes, Saddam should be removed, one way or the other.

And not because of his political views, but because of what his views will lead him to do.

J

Jacob Singer

05-07-2002, 08:51 AM

Do we know for a fact that this man was killed for his political stances? Any follow ups?

devincf

05-07-2002, 09:08 AM

Seahawk®:
I am really Devin:
Then I guess none of you believe in the assasination of foreign leaders?Two different things.

We WERE talking about the murder of a life.

Now, we are talking about something that is not black and white and has many grey areas that IF we were to get into a discussion, it would turn ugly. Because there is no simple answer.How is killing a foreign leader NOT the murder of a life? Did they replace the Axis of Evil with robots?

Kronos

05-07-2002, 10:34 AM

This is typical. When a guy is no longer a useful idiot he gets whacked. After all, this guy wasn't gay enough to live because he held other views undesireable to whatever leftist whacko murdered him.

Once a person turns right they lose their sexual preference doesn't matter anymore.

Once a person turns right they lose their melanin.

Once a person turns right they are no longer useful...so whack 'em.

DaveB

05-07-2002, 10:56 AM

Kronos:
This is typical. When a guy is no longer a useful idiot he gets whacked. After all, this guy wasn't gay enough to live because he held other views undesireable to whatever leftist whacko murdered him.

Once a person turns right they lose their sexual preference doesn't matter anymore.

Once a person turns right they lose their melanin.

Once a person turns right they are no longer useful...so whack 'em.Oh, please. This is "typical?" How often are nationalist, gay, right-wing European politicians "wacked?"

Actually, how often are right-wing politicians of any kind "wacked?"

And, while I don't think it's cool to celebrate harm to anyone (Scott Stapp from Creed excluded), it seems pretty knee-jerk to leap to Fortuyn's defense based simply on the fact that he's right of center and anti-Islam.

Kronos

05-07-2002, 11:02 AM

Heh heh...just thought I'd stir it up a bit.

Yes, what I said was a bit non-sequitor regarding the word "typical", but the other statements have much truth attached to them.

Kronos

05-07-2002, 11:05 AM

And since I don't really know squat about this guy -except that people seem to be fairly pleased a right-winger is dead- I am not leapiong to defend him. Just pointing something out.

Yet somehow my point will be soon lost in a flurry of rhetoric and/or expletives.

It causes one to feel how one's own death by bullet would be received here on the CHUD messageboards...simply because one is of right-wing views.

devincf

05-07-2002, 11:36 AM

yeah i'd be lost in mourning

DaveB

05-07-2002, 11:46 AM

Kronos:
It causes one to feel how one's own death by bullet would be received here on the CHUD messageboards...simply because one is of right-wing views.And are you saying there aren't right-wingers on the board who would react exactly the same way if, say, Bill or Hillary Clinton were killed?

Maybe you wouldn't be one of them, Kronos, but I have a feeling we'd see a few celebratory threads pop up.

As you yourself said in another thread, extreme activists of any sort are galling - I think this goes for those with extreme political views, in general.

Seabass Inna Bun

05-07-2002, 12:36 PM

I certainly wouldn't dance in the street if Kronos were taken out. I'd do nothing of the sort.

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 01:15 PM

I admire some of you here for your ability to grasp Dutch politics so firmly. I wasn't aware that we had so many experts on what constitutes a "right winger" in Holland. Us stateside right wingers are obvious mental dwarves compared to the steel trap minds of the left who can make authorative statements about the politics of a nation that many would have a hard time locating on a map. Try digging a little deeper than what you read on the CNN website concerning this , and you might realize that *gasp* this entire story is riddled with the typical hyperbole that infects so many in the news biz....

DaveB

05-07-2002, 01:45 PM

Call:
I admire some of you here for your ability to grasp Dutch politics so firmly. I wasn't aware that we had so many experts on what constitutes a "right winger" in Holland. Us stateside right wingers are obvious mental dwarves compared to the steel trap minds of the left who can make authorative statements about the politics of a nation that many would have a hard time locating on a map. Well, no one really delved into Dutch politics here, Call. As I mentioned, the right appears to be a little different in Holland (high profile right-wing gay officials, etc.). Even Devin and Tony, who obviously are the most anti-Fortuyn (perhaps based just on the article, perhaps based on more - we don't know), never mentioned how much background they have on the man.

But it's interesting that you, as usual, have to make this some sort of intellectual competition between the left and right. Your bias and narrow-mindedness is becoming tiresome. Many of us here would probably not support this man's policies, but are engaging in intelligent debate about whether this sort of death is ever warranted, nonetheless (only if it's a left-winger, right, Call?). So can the left vs. right crap for once.

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 04:13 PM

The Crazy World of DaveB
]Well, no one really delved into Dutch politics here, Call. As I mentioned, the right appears to be a little different in Holland (high profile right-wing gay officials, etc.). Even Devin and Tony, who obviously are the most anti-Fortuyn (perhaps based just on the article, perhaps based on more - we don't know), never mentioned how much background they have on the man.

But it's interesting that you, as usual, have to make this some sort of intellectual competition between the left and right. Your bias and narrow-mindedness is becoming tiresome. Many of us here would probably not support this man's policies, but are engaging in intelligent debate about whether this sort of death is ever warranted, nonetheless (only if it's a left-winger, right, Call?). So can the left vs. right crap for once.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Get over it. I'm not baiting people, but you seem intent on having you feelings hurt.
I've not said or done anything out of line or excessive in this thread or any other. You don't like what I say, fine, but don't tell me to can it. You can simply avoid reading my posts dave....

Kevin Matchstick

05-07-2002, 04:26 PM

Michael Rabattino

05-07-2002, 04:36 PM

The man was killed solely on his beliefs?

That's bullshit, but I guess it's typical that you would reap excitement from it, Devin.

devincf

05-07-2002, 04:56 PM

Hey Verbal, fuck you.

Michael Rabattino

05-07-2002, 05:05 PM

Yeah, that's what I thought.

DaveB

05-07-2002, 05:06 PM

Call:

Get over it. I'm not baiting people, Call:
Us stateside right wingers are obvious mental dwarves compared to the steel trap minds of the leftUmmm... what, you didn't expect a response from us steel-trap-mind-enabled liberals for your exuberant praise?

but you seem intent on having you feelings hurt.Trust me, my feelings aren't hurt. I just think there are some interesting issues here that aren't so clearly left vs. right, yet you took a swipe at "the left," when "the left" doesn't seem to be making any more assumptions about the Dutch government than "the right" on this thread. As far as I can see, Devin and Tony were the only ones who chimed in that this might be a GOOD thing, and those guys don't necessarily represent where I'm coming from about half the time.

I've not said or done anything out of line or excessive in this thread or any other. You don't like what I say, fine, but don't tell me to can it. You can simply avoid reading my posts dave....Out of line, no. Repetitive? Maybe a little? Maybe the 'can it' line was harsh. My apologies. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

Michael Rabattino

05-07-2002, 05:08 PM

Devin is glad this guy was killed, who harmed no one, but talk about going in and shooting Osama Bin Laden in the head for killing 3000 people....

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 05:13 PM

No one is glad he is killed.

But I ain't gonna feel iota or difference my body because of it.

As long as the raciest fucker is out of the race, I don't care.

DaveB

05-07-2002, 05:20 PM

Tony Ryan:

As long as the raciest fucker is out of the race, I don't care.What's wrong with being racy? :D

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 05:23 PM

Oh, a lot.

Did you know he was also racist? I just found that out, crazy.

DaveB

05-07-2002, 05:29 PM

Yeah, I kind of assumed from the anti-immigrant stance. But, in general terms, a lot of our grandparents and great-grandparents are/were probably a little racist, as well, by our standards.

Doesn't mean I want to see any of them take a bullet. And, no, of course I wouldn't want to see them voted into office, either.

As Verbal alluded to, there are actions for which execution seems a lot more deserved than simply being a racist.

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 05:31 PM

True, the best course of action was not killing.

But now that it is done, can't say I really give a shit.

Kronos

05-07-2002, 05:42 PM

Why is everything racism to some of you? You mean a person is thankfully dead because you dubbed him racist?

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 05:47 PM

Problem is Kronos, he is a racist.

Everything is not racist to me, he is fucking racist.

devincf

05-07-2002, 06:00 PM

kronos gets upset when people term anti-immigration bigots as racist because he is one. and being racist doesn't fit in with his world view because he wants to fuck black chicks.

i don't WANT anyone to die. but people do. every day. all the time.

i posted this because it is NEWS. the rise of the right in europe has been occuring for years, and this a part of it. will people rally behind the now martyred man? is this more indicative of the true feelings of the european public?

i shed no tears for the death of a man who believes the way he believes and seeks public office. he was looking to impose his beliefs on a nation, which to me is different than my racist grandfather who complains about darkies on TV.

i would never advocate his killing. but i won't get too worked up about it either.

Kronos

05-07-2002, 06:01 PM

Asshole

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 06:02 PM

Caps not working?

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 06:02 PM

As long as you realize that by simply CALLING someone a racist doesn't make it so. It's your opinion. That's it...
I wish we could go one thread without that old chestnut being hauled out to try and argue a point.

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 06:03 PM

Of course when I say racist it's what I think, do I really need to tell you that?

devincf

05-07-2002, 06:11 PM

the racism chestnut?

i think racism applies in this thread

and paul, i'm flattered

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 06:12 PM

Tony Ryan:
Of course when I say racist it's what I think, do I really need to tell you that?True enough. Sorry about that, it's just starting to get unreasonably heated in this thread...(and this forum as well)

Tony Ryan

05-07-2002, 06:14 PM

It's cool I understand, I came off as harsh too. So sorry aboot that.

And Devin is right about racism applying here.

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 06:17 PM

Tony Ryan:
So sorry aboot that.

.God, I thought you were an American....not a Canadian
wink

Big Black

05-07-2002, 08:28 PM

Call:
I wasn't aware that we had so many experts on what constitutes a "right winger" in Holland. ...Try digging a little deeper than what you read on the CNN website concerning this , and you might realize that *gasp* this entire story is riddled with the typical hyperbole that infects so many in the news biz....Hahah

The first post of yours I ever read on these boards was a call for the murder of Yassir Arafat.

You endorse the murder of a man whom you've never met and then enter this thread spouting some sarcastic shit about how we should be careful of all the hyperbole in the media.

Your act needs work.

Jim Pappas/Jabba

05-07-2002, 08:30 PM

What is the title of this thread?

Anyway, the simple truth is that assassination is a tool of anarchists. Whether being used against a left, right, center, over, under, sideways down person, it is a tool of anarchy. This is a BAD thing. Anarchists do not provide or create. They destroy and take.

Humanity benefits as a whole when civilized behavior is the norm. Humanity suffers as a whole when chaotic and unprincipled behavior is the norm. This is true on the individual level, and it is true on the societal level. Personally, the Dutch guy was probably an asshole. But it is the means that I decry. I would feel the same way if Saddam Hussein were assassinated by our CIA.

Matt Carroll

05-07-2002, 09:11 PM

Big Black:
Call:
I wasn't aware that we had so many experts on what constitutes a "right winger" in Holland. ...Try digging a little deeper than what you read on the CNN website concerning this , and you might realize that *gasp* this entire story is riddled with the typical hyperbole that infects so many in the news biz....Hahah <----------A needed here!

The first post of yours I ever read on these boards was a call for the murder of Yassir Arafat.

You endorse the murder of a man whom you've never met and then enter this thread spouting some sarcastic shit about how we should be careful of all the hyperbole in the media.

Your act needs work.you need one more A in your laugh