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Joram Manka
04-14-2002, 11:39 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself - from the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/opinion/13RICH.html" target="_blank">New York Times</a> (text bolding by me for emphasis on points)

The Bush Doctrine, R.I.P.

By FRANK RICH

s a statement of principle set forth by an American chief executive, the now defunct Bush Doctrine may have had a shelf life even shorter than Kenny Boy's Enron code of ethics. As a statement of presidential intent, it may land in the history books alongside such magisterial moments as Lyndon Johnson's 1964 pledge not to send American boys to Vietnam and Richard Nixon's 1968 promise to "bring us together."

It was in September that the president told Congress that "from this day forward any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime." It was in November that he told the United Nations that "there is no such thing as a good terrorist." Now the president is being assailed even within his own political camp for not only refusing to label Yasir Arafat a terrorist but judging him good enough to be a potential partner in our desperate effort to tamp down the flames of the Middle East.

Yet the administration's double standard for Mr. Arafat is hardly the first , or only, breach of the Bush Doctrine.

As Tina Fey explained with only faint comic exaggeration on "Saturday Night Live" last weekend, the U.S. also does business of state with nations that both "fund all the terrorism in the world" (Saudi Arabia, where the royal family on Thursday joined in a telethon supporting Palestinian "martyrs") and are "100 percent with the terrorists except for one little guy in charge" (Pakistan). President Bush, who once spoke of rigid lines drawn between "good" men and "evildoers," has now been so overrun by fresh hellish events and situational geopolitical bargaining that his old formulations — "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists" — have been rendered meaningless.

But even as he fudges his good/evil categorizations when it comes to Mr. Arafat and other players he suddenly may need in the Middle East, it's not clear that Mr. Bush knows that he can no longer look at the world as if it were Major League Baseball, with every team clearly delineated in its particular division. "Look, my job isn't to try to nuance," he told a British interviewer a week after the Passover massacre in Netanya. "My job is to tell people what I think. . . . I think moral clarity is important."

Mr. Bush doesn't seem to realize that nuances are what his own administration is belatedly trying to master — and must — if Colin Powell is going to hasten a cease-fire in the Middle East. Mr. Bush doesn't seem to know that since the routing of the Taliban his moral clarity has atrophied into simplistic, often hypocritical sloganeering. He has let his infatuation with his own rectitude metastasize into hubris.

The result — the catastrophe of the administration's handling of the Middle East — is clear : 15 months of procrastination and conflict avoidance followed by a baffling barrage of mixed messages that have made Mr. Bush's use of the phrase "without delay" the most elastically parsed presidential words since his predecessor's definition of sex. It takes some kind of perverse genius to simultaneously earn the defiance of the Israelis, the Palestinians and our Arab "allies" alike and turn the United States into an impotent bystander.

The ensuing mess should be a wake-up call for Mr. Bush to examine his own failings and those of his administration rather than try (as he did a week ago) to shift the blame to Bill Clinton's failed Camp David summit talks (and then backpedal after being called on it). While the conventional wisdom has always had it that this president can be bailed out of foreign-policy jams by his seasoned brain trust, the competing axes of power in the left (State) and right (Defense) halves of that surrogate brain have instead sent him bouncing between conflicting policies like a yo-yo, sometimes within the same day.

Speaking to The Los Angeles Times this week about Mr. Bush's floundering, the Reagan administration policy honcho for the Mideast, Geoffrey Kemp, said: " A two-year-old could have seen this crisis coming . And the idea that it could be brushed under the carpet as the administration focused on either Afghanistan or Iraq reflects either appalling arrogance or ignorance."

The administration of Cheney, Rumsfeld and Powell is hardly ignorant. But arrogance is another matter. "We shouldn't think of American involvement for the sake of American involvement" is how Condoleezza Rice defined the administration's intention to butt out of the Middle East only a couple of weeks after her boss's inauguration, thereby codifying the early Bush decision not to send a negotiator to a last-ditch peace summit in Egypt. Since then, even as Sept. 11 came and went, we've been at best reluctantly and passingly engaged, culminating with our recall of the envoy Anthony Zinni in December, after which we sat idly by during three months of horror. Not until Dick Cheney returned from his humiliating tour of the Arab world in late March did he state the obvious: "There isn't anybody but us" to bring about a hiatus in the worst war the region has seen in 20 years.

Even then, the 180-degree reversal from the administration's previous inertia was not motivated by the bloody imperatives of the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians but by their inconvenient disruption of Mr. Bush's plans to finish his father's job in Iraq. A cynic might go so far as to say that " Saddam Hussein is driving U.S. foreign policy " — which, as it happens, is what Benjamin Netanyahu did tell The New York Post on Tuesday.

The goal of stopping Saddam, worthy as it is, cannot be separated from the conflict of the Jews and the Palestinians and never could be. But even now Mr. Bush seems less than engaged in the Middle East. It took him a week after the Passover massacre to decide to send Colin Powell to the region. The president has yet to speak publicly about the spillover of the hostilities into Europe, where each day brings news of some of the ugliest anti-Semitic violence seen there since World War II. He continues to resist the idea that American peacekeepers will be needed to keep the Middle East (not to mention Afghanistan) from tumbling back into the chaos that could once again upend his plans to take on Saddam.

Peacekeepers, of course, are to Mr. Bush a synonym for nation-building , which he regards as a no-no. If there's a consistent pattern to the administration's arrogance, it's that when the president has an idée fixe of almost any sort on any subject — from the Bush Doctrine on down — it remains fixed in perpetuity, not open to question, even as a world as complex and fast-changing as ours calls out for rethinking.

Never mind that Sept. 11 was the most graphic demonstration imaginable that a missile shield may not be the most useful vessel for our ever more precious defense dollars; it's still full speed ahead. Nor has the bursting of the stock-market bubble dampened Mr. Bush's conviction that Americans should entrust their Social Security savings to his campaign contributors from Wall Street's investment houses. Drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, once pitched as a quick fix to the (fleeting) California energy crisis, is now being sold as an antidote to our Middle Eastern woes (because some 10 years from now it may reduce our oil imports by 4 or 5 percent). The Bush tax cut, conceived at a time of endless surpluses and peace, is still touted as the perfect economic plan even now that the surpluses are shot and we are at war. In this administration, one size idea, however slender or dubious, fits all .

To Mr. Bush, these immutable policies are no doubt all doctrines, principles, testaments to his moral clarity. In fact, many of them have more to do with ideology than morality. Only history can determine whether they will be any more lasting than the Bush doctrine on terrorism. Meanwhile, we should be grateful that the administration did abandon its stubborn 15-month disengagement from the Middle East to make an effort, however confused, hasty and perilous, to halt the bloodshed and (one imagines) lead the search for a political solution.

"This is a world with a lot of gray," said Chuck Hagel, the Republican from Nebraska, to The Washington Post late this week. "We can choose either to live in an abstract world or choose to engage in the real world. . . . The reality of that has started to set in with this administration." We must hope that Senator Hagel is right. While it is far too late for an Arafat or a Sharon to change, it is not too late for a young president still in a young administration to get over himself. At this tragic juncture, the world depends on it, because, as his own vice president put it, there isn't anybody else to do the job.

Kronos
04-15-2002, 10:13 AM
I feel sorry --no, not really-- for those who actually believed that "doctrine".

Look at what's happening now. Colin Powell having a powwow of sorts with Arafat.

Like I said: The President is dancing with these terrorists.

Matt Carroll
04-15-2002, 10:45 AM
The New York Times editors have as much credibility to me as Ann Coulter does to Adam Warren.
That said though.....I wish I could whisper into the president's ear to pull Powell out of the Middle East right this moment, and allow the Israelis to kill Arafat and his entire staff. That's just me though.

Joram Manka
04-15-2002, 01:04 PM
.....I wish I could whisper into the president's ear to pull Powell out of the Middle East right this moment, and allow the Israelis to kill Arafat and his entire staff....wow.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
04-15-2002, 08:54 PM
The United States has behaved with admirable restraint and wisdom during the current round of violence in the Middle East. Yes, we are walking a fine line, and we should be.

I am amused by the NY Times editorial, as these people are clearly ignorant when it comes to understanding what is really going on. The President, Congress, and all of our elected leaders are representing the will of the people. And they are doing so in a very fine way. I am sympathetic to the desires of the Palestinians, and I am sympathetic to the needs of Israel. I believe I am an average citizen, whose opinion is fairly representative of the majority. I want to see a peaceful solution to the problems in the Middle East. The President and his advisors are doing the best they can, and I certainly couldn't be doing any better. I don't have any ideas about how we can "solve" the problems in the Middle East.

Let those who would criticize and harrangue Mr. Bush provide some concrete solutions to the situation, and then I'll have some respect for their opinions. Otherwise I just think they are stupid.

Adam Price-qatsi
04-15-2002, 11:25 PM
Frank Rich kicks all your asses.

Matt Carroll
04-16-2002, 01:42 AM
As Ann Coulter kicks yours.

El-Topo
04-16-2002, 05:48 AM
The United States has behaved with admirable restraint and wisdom during the current round of violence in the Middle East. LOL!

Jim Pappas/Jabba
04-16-2002, 11:12 PM
El-Topo:
The United States has behaved with admirable restraint and wisdom during the current round of violence in the Middle East. LOL!Do YOU have any ideas as to how to resolve this? Otherwise, I am the one who is LOL.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-17-2002, 02:39 AM
"I am amused by the NY Times editorial, as these people are clearly ignorant when it comes to understanding what is really going on." The New York Times knows dick while Mr. Donut knows everything, what is the world coming to.

Bush said he would not deal with terrorists, now Bush is dealing with terrorists, do you admire that? How different from his father is this guy? Doesnt seem very different to me. He started a war in the Persian Gulf that he never finished and now his son has started a war on terrorism which he will not go the distance on either.

I dont think there is an easy solution to this problem, but I am sure the solution is not to continue to appease Arafat. I wish goodwill to the innocent Palestinians that only want to live ine peace, but the terrorists deserve the same fate as we brought about for the Al Queada in Afghanistan.

El-Topo
04-17-2002, 06:35 AM
Of course I have no more idea than you how to resolve this issue, but saying the US has acted with wisdom seems incredible.
Wisdom would have meant Bush not pulling out of the area completely a few days after coming into office, only to send Colin Powell on a mission he knew was going to fail when he had no other choice.
Restraint would have meant not letting Sharon go towards the road of repression and shunning out Arafat, which even a child could have seen would lead to an all-out war.
What I do understand is the US condemning the Palestinian terrorists after 9/11, and not accepting those violent acts. It makes sense emotionally. But politically, giving full support to Israel was the surest way of creating new terrorists, and after the recent events all Palestinians are potential suicide bombers.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-17-2002, 03:28 PM
El-Topo:
Of course I have no more idea than you how to resolve this issue, but saying the US has acted with wisdom seems incredible.
Wisdom would have meant Bush not pulling out of the area completely a few days after coming into office, only to send Colin Powell on a mission he knew was going to fail when he had no other choice.
Restraint would have meant not letting Sharon go towards the road of repression and shunning out Arafat, which even a child could have seen would lead to an all-out war.
What I do understand is the US condemning the Palestinian terrorists after 9/11, and not accepting those violent acts. It makes sense emotionally. But politically, giving full support to Israel was the surest way of creating new terrorists, and after the recent events all Palestinians are potential suicide bombers.The only problem with your logic is that Arafat is a terrorist. He runs Al Fatah. The military wing of AL Fatah is the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade....responsible for a number of recent suicide bombings.

Kronos
04-17-2002, 05:16 PM
Restraint would have meant not letting Sharon go towards the road of repression That's not restraint. That action -key word in this instance- would mean us(U.S.) restraining Isreal, which is an action on our part.

Restraint is where you don't do something. Restraint would have meant not getting involved.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
04-17-2002, 08:56 PM
The New York times and it's cadre of journalists are responsible for reporting news. Unfortunately, they are also the ones who decide what is considered news.

Editorial commentary is an established precedent with American newspapers, and that which is published generally reflects the attitudes held by the majority of the editorial staff of any newspaper.

The New York Times has it's opinion, but that is all it is, opinion. It doesn't mean they are right.

MY OPINION is that they are clueless fucks whose understanding of the situation in the Middle East (and sometimes elsewhere) is based upon shoddy research, a poor understanding of the psychological rationale behind the actions and behaviors of the people of the area, and a general disregard for, and unwillingness to undertake, the work necessary to have see clearly that which motivates the individuals involved in shaping and leading the mass reactions and causal relationships to events.

This is clear to me based upon the article that was cited.

Stew
04-17-2002, 10:41 PM
So let me get this straight. Liberals around here are now criticizing Bush because he's showing restraint in the Middle East and not rushing to do anything? Aren't these the same people who were always looking for an opprtunity to call Bush and the U.S. barbaric, unfeeling, warmongers?

Saying the you want to fight terror is a good thing. But who really wants to jump head first into Israel? No one. Absolutely no one. This is political opportunism because, truth be told, if this editorial's writer or any Democrat in Congress was in charge they'd be doing the exact same thing right now. Moving cautiously, trying to broker peace in any way they can.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-18-2002, 01:39 AM
Stew:
So let me get this straight. Liberals around here are now criticizing Bush because he's showing restraint in the Middle East and not rushing to do anything? Aren't these the same people who were always looking for an opprtunity to call Bush and the U.S. barbaric, unfeeling, warmongers?

Saying the you want to fight terror is a good thing. But who really wants to jump head first into Israel? No one. Absolutely no one. This is political opportunism because, truth be told, if this editorial's writer or any Democrat in Congress was in charge they'd be doing the exact same thing right now. Moving cautiously, trying to broker peace in any way they can.I think this issue goes way beyond political affiliation. Also I think you may be forgetting that a large part of the problem that the article has with Bush's handling of the situation is the fact that he his only entering it now...when its at its worst. As the biggest supporter of Israel we should have had a hand in peace negotiations as soon as violence broke out...maybe we would have had a chance of working something out then.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-18-2002, 01:43 AM
jabbadonut:
The New York times and it's cadre of journalists are responsible for reporting news. Unfortunately, they are also the ones who decide what is considered news.

Editorial commentary is an established precedent with American newspapers, and that which is published generally reflects the attitudes held by the majority of the editorial staff of any newspaper.

The New York Times has it's opinion, but that is all it is, opinion. It doesn't mean they are right.

MY OPINION is that they are clueless fucks whose understanding of the situation in the Middle East (and sometimes elsewhere) is based upon shoddy research, a poor understanding of the psychological rationale behind the actions and behaviors of the people of the area, and a general disregard for, and unwillingness to undertake, the work necessary to have see clearly that which motivates the individuals involved in shaping and leading the mass reactions and causal relationships to events.

This is clear to me based upon the article that was cited.In your opinion the New York Times staff are a bunch of "clueless fucks"? You can say a lot about them, but that? Mr. Donut, as a guy who seems to change his opinion about issues almost constantly and is prone to posting very odd thoughts at random times...I would watch who you call "clueless fucks"...even if it is just your opinion. I mean Im sure there are a lot of people on these boards who dont agree with the political leanings of the paper....but man...

Matt Carroll
04-18-2002, 02:01 AM
While I wouldn't say they are "clueless fucks", I will say they are self important bastards with an inflated vision of their worth to the nation. How's that?

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-18-2002, 12:26 PM
call7001:
While I wouldn't say they are "clueless fucks", I will say they are self important bastards with an inflated vision of their worth to the nation. How's that?Got no problem with it, at least it shows a bit of thought.

Jacob Singer
04-18-2002, 02:20 PM
Well, not everyone can have "talent on loan from God".

Stew
04-18-2002, 03:14 PM
Ned Fats:
I think this issue goes way beyond political affiliation. Also I think you may be forgetting that a large part of the problem that the article has with Bush's handling of the situation is the fact that he his only entering it now...when its at its worst. As the biggest supporter of Israel we should have had a hand in peace negotiations as soon as violence broke out...maybe we would have had a chance of working something out then.This is my problem. What would the U.S. really have been able to accomplish? Israel was mad and was going to roll in the tanks this time. The PLO has shown time and again that it really doesn't care what we think about anything anyway. Going in waving a white flag wasn't going to stop this, so saying, "Oh, Bush waited too long" is ridiculous. Zinni was sent to the region and no one there cared, and now even Colin Powell has come and gone and things aren't a whole lot different.

Face it, in this situation, they weren't going to listen to us. Israel had had enough and needed to retaliate. They'll act like they're following our wishes, but they're really just following the same timetable they always had. We are Israel's number one ally, so this time we let them handle it their way before stepping in and trying to tell them what to do.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-18-2002, 03:31 PM
Stew:
Ned Fats:
I think this issue goes way beyond political affiliation. Also I think you may be forgetting that a large part of the problem that the article has with Bush's handling of the situation is the fact that he his only entering it now...when its at its worst. As the biggest supporter of Israel we should have had a hand in peace negotiations as soon as violence broke out...maybe we would have had a chance of working something out then.This is my problem. What would the U.S. really have been able to accomplish? Israel was mad and was going to roll in the tanks this time. The PLO has shown time and again that it really doesn't care what we think about anything anyway. Going in waving a white flag wasn't going to stop this, so saying, "Oh, Bush waited too long" is ridiculous. Zinni was sent to the region and no one there cared, and now even Colin Powell has come and gone and things aren't a whole lot different.

Face it, in this situation, they weren't going to listen to us. Israel had had enough and needed to retaliate. They'll act like they're following our wishes, but they're really just following the same timetable they always had. We are Israel's number one ally, so this time we let them handle it their way before stepping in and trying to tell them what to do.I dont mean to be a jerk here but I'm not sure if you have a very good grasp of the current situation. What your saying is that we let the Israel's do what they wanted to...until they took real action? And now we are stepping in? I mean the recent occupation was the Israeli's response...and our Government is publically against it. We are telling them what to do....

Stew
04-18-2002, 06:26 PM
Ned, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I do have a grasp of the situation there. My point is that the Israelis were retaliating for the attacks, attacks that were so brutal that they weren't going to be patient and sit by without military action. Some are saying "We stepped in too late", and my point is that its not like the Israelis would have listened if we had. They were going to retaliate, so acting like all it would have taken was some peace talk from us Americans would have kept this from happening is ridiculous.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-18-2002, 09:44 PM
Stew:
Ned, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I do have a grasp of the situation there. My point is that the Israelis were retaliating for the attacks, attacks that were so brutal that they weren't going to be patient and sit by without military action. Some are saying "We stepped in too late", and my point is that its not like the Israelis would have listened if we had. They were going to retaliate, so acting like all it would have taken was some peace talk from us Americans would have kept this from happening is ridiculous.I think that when people talk about us stepping int too late, they dont mean we should have two weeks ago, but a year or more earlier. We should have been at least trying to mediate while things were not as bad, not try to pick up the pieces after things have already escalated.

Kronos
04-19-2002, 12:18 AM
...We should have been at least trying to mediate while things were not as bad...Why? What good did any mediation do in the past? Oh sure, Isreal and Egypt are not at war with one another. Lebanon doesn't lob as many shells across their borders as they used to.

But what good has any "talk" done with Arafat? Zero.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-19-2002, 02:34 AM
kronos:
...We should have been at least trying to mediate while things were not as bad...Why? What good did any mediation do in the past? Oh sure, Isreal and Egypt are not at war with one another. Lebanon doesn't lob as many shells across their borders as they used to.

But what good has any "talk" done with Arafat? Zero.I agree with your last point, it is a large part of what I have been posting about in this thread. But if we are going to take any hand in this situation it should not be when the shit has already hit the fan. At the least maybe we could have helped find an alternative to Arafat....

Kronos
04-19-2002, 12:18 PM
"Find an alternative" means different things to different people. To me it means having an accurate assasin shoot the bastard right in the dome.

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-19-2002, 01:29 PM
kronos:
"Find an alternative" means different things to different people. To me it means having an accurate assasin shoot the bastard right in the dome.Yeah, and that would really accomplish a lot. I've noticed from your recent posts on the board that you have really started abandoning logic and common sense all together. That sounds like a personal attack but it is really not meant to be.Y ou are usually on the ball and a better argumenter than most (myself included)...what's happened?

Ben (formally Ned Fats)
04-19-2002, 01:31 PM
Ned Fats:
kronos:
"Find an alternative" means different things to different people. To me it means having an accurate assasin shoot the bastard right in the dome.Yeah, and that would really accomplish a lot. I've noticed from your recent posts on the board that you have really started abandoning logic and common sense all together. That sounds like a personal attack but it is honestly not meant to be. You are usually on the ball and a better argumenter than most (myself included)...what's happened?

Kronos
04-19-2002, 02:40 PM
Ned Fats:
kronos:
"Find an alternative" means different things to different people. To me it means having an accurate assasin shoot the bastard right in the dome.Yeah, and that would really accomplish a lot. I've noticed from your recent posts on the board that you have really started abandoning logic and common sense all together. That sounds like a personal attack but it is really not meant to be.Y ou are usually on the ball and a better argumenter than most (myself included)...what's happened?Fatigue brought out by communion with divorce lawyers, family court systems, District Attorneys, Art Auction madness, disgruntled viewers, and no time this week to aleviate stress on my mountain bike.

Sometimes there are days...I apologize.