Essential Hard-boiled Pulp Fiction

[Z-Man]

I've really enjoyed the scifi and fantasy threads, I've lately been starting to read more in those genres and I like having those lists for references. The one other genre I'm starting to get into is the Hard Boiled stuff from whence films noir are adapted. I trust the opinions of chewers, so any suggestions are welcome.

[grendel]

Whoa, and you've inadvertently stumbled into the realm of grendel...

We talking vintage, or we talking current?

Vintage:

Chandler is better than Hammett, or at least more entertaining, so you'd be looking for THE BIG SLEEP, possibly some other Philip Marlowe stories. If you want strictly NOIR then you're looking for Jim Thompson, specifically POP. 1280 (made into the French film COUP DE TORCHON, in the sixties[?]).

If you're wanting to step up a few decades, then you want the Lew Archer series (made into the films HARPER and the substandard THE DROWNING POOL, with Paul Newman...THE BIG LEBOWSKI has, scene for scene, some MASSIVE homages to the film HARPER...pretty funny) by MacDonald, and many say (I don't know that I include myself) that Lew Archer is the inheritor of Chandler's Philip Marlow. While the books are good, I think it may take more than being in SoCal to be Marlowe's "successor". Also by McDonald (a different McDonald) are the Travis McGee books, about a beach bum/war hero, who lives on his boat in Florida. These too kick some ass. Both series are from the sixties/seventies.

We advance now to THE DETECTIVE by Roderick Thorp (who wrote NOBODY LIVES FOREVER, filmed as DIE HARD), which is superb, and I agree when critics state that it advances the detective novel into literature.

Then we hit the eighties (to the present), and Robert B. Parker's SPENSER novels. Ignore all you know (or THINK you know) of the three-season show on TV and realize that Parker's creation is indeed a literary giant.

Take it about fifty steps darker and you have Andrew Vachss ultimate anti-hero BURKE, in the novels FLOOD, STREGA, BLUE BELLE, HARD CANDY, BLOSSOM, SACRIFICE, DOWN IN THE ZERO, FOOTSTEPS OF THE HAWK, FALSE ALLEGATIONS, DEAD AND GONE, and PAIN MANAGEMENT. I know them by heart, on account of I know the books by heart. They are (in a word, and with the exception of FALSE ALLEGATIONS) perfect.

Staying dark, we go to Richard Stark, and his PARKER novels (filmed a number of times, most recently as the weak-ass Gibson flick PAYBACK). He wrote about 17 of them twenty-odd years ago, and revitalized the series about 4 years ago with COMEBACK, then BACKFLASH, then FLASHFIRE, and coming soon FIRESTORM (?). These four are priceless gems, although even the old series is not too dated.

Do not neglect or forget the inimitable horror author Dan Simmons, and his GREAT novel of last year, HARDCASE. He takes noir by the balls, then cuts it with a rusty scalpel. In Vachss category, or Stark's, for that matter.

Now, we remain in the present and talk Robert Crais, and his Elvis Cole series. Elvis is, moreso than Lew Archer, the TRUE inheritor of Marlowe's LA Independent Operator mantle. He, and his (largely silent) partner Joe Pike, takes on cases that unfold into something else, then something else again, and then all goes to shit. Beautiful books. Crais departure from these with DETONATION ANGEL and HOSTAGE mark "his maturity as a writer" and as such are bullshit. His most recent Elvis Cole novel, L.A. REQUIEM, is a beast of holy goodness, and was hailed by all near and far as a literary masterpiece. Crais is also a genius, and a cool guy to talk to. Former TV writer for Mr. Michael Mann's MIAMI VICE and LA LAW.

For future reference, take NOIR, by K.W. Jeter (the Blade Runner knock-offs) which is, oddly enough, NOIR, only about a couple hundred years advance.

For fantasy allegories, take Steven Brust's JHEREG, YENDI, TECKLA, TALTOS, PHOENIX, ATHYRA, ORCA, DRAGON, ISSOLA. These are noir, only in a world where humans don't dominate, but rather Draegarans do, sorcerous beings eight to nine feet tall who live three-four THOUSAND years, and every few centuries make devestating war on the human settlements to the east of their empire. The hero (anti, again) Vlad Taltos, (Taltos being Hungarian for "magician" or "sorcerer") is a human assassin, who joined the only noble house available to him, the JHEREG. This house's auspices cover organized crime.

There. My initial thoughts. All for you.

Read some now, thank me later.

[Blofeld]

And don't forget Simmons' second Kurtz novel coming in August of this year, Hard Freeze.

[grendel]

And, knowing I'd forget one or two by the wayside, Lawrence Block's Matt Scudder series is beautiful, filled with thick red moments. More detecting and less action, but dark as Lucifer's cock. This shit is heavy, affecting, and great. Read two or three of his older ones (there are many) such as A DANCE AT THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE before skipping directly to EVERYBODY DIES. EVERYBODY DIES is so, so sweet.

And if you're into some ethnic flavor, Walter Mosely's Easy Rawlins books kick some major hinder too, the first filmed as DEVIL IN A BLUE DRESS, but also another (not featuring Easy) filmed for HBO as ALWAYS OUTNUMBERED, ALWAYS OUTGUNNED.

Moseley knows the streets and black ghettos of LA, and his books, while written from the late eighties to today, traverse time from the late 50's/early 60's to, I think, the early eighties. I dunno. All are good.

Go, read in peace and joy.

[Mad Man Mundt]

The Long Good-Bye - Raymond Chandler

The Maltese Falcon, The Glass Key, and any of The Continental Op series - Dashiel Hammett

The Black Dahlia, The Big Nowhere, L.A. Confidential, White Jazz, American Tabloid, The Cold Six-Thousand - James Ellroy

The Killer Inside Me, and basically anything else you can find - Jim Thompson

Anything you can get your hands on by these authors:
Charles Willeford
David Goodis
Fredric Brown
James M. Cain
Cornell Wollrich
Andrew Vachss
Chester Himes
Donald Goines - Himes and Goines are African Americans and write damn good bad ass pulp. Himes also has stuff that is powerful and not of the noir archetype. He was an important voice in black fiction.
Ross MacDonald
Lawerence Block - The Matt Scudder novels

Also check here as a resource.

<a href="http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/blacklizard/" target="_blank">http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/blacklizard/</a>

D'oh! I can't believe I forgot Spenser as well as Crais and Stark. Richard Stark is actually a pseudonym of Donald E. Westlake.

[grendel]

Blofeld:
And don't forget Simmons' second Kurtz novel coming in August of this year, Hard Freeze.Sweet. I was as yet unaware, but shall now be on the lookout. You the man, Blo. Oh, and does Simmons pay you for this, because he damn well should.

[Blofeld]

Jeebus, grendel. Follow my link in the thread to you, or look for the "Sneak Preview of Simmons' new one" in this forum.

Chapter One of Hard Freeze is available there.

And on his website (see my signature) Simmons says that a 3rd Kurtz novel has been contracted for. He muses the working title Shot to Shit, as chapter one of that novel has Kurtz literally shot to shit in it.

[grendel]

SHOT TO SHIT...hmm, that one oughta get him carried in a lot of school libraries.

Cool, though. And yes, I AM capable of following threads, I just find it distasteful.

[Blofeld]

That's why I think he was laughing about it (at least that's the tone I read into his statement). I sense Simmons asking himself if he dares. He does indicate that he doesn't want to have to follow the Hard pattern ... he'd eventually have to go with:

Harder Case
Harder Freeze

**resurrection of old BBS jokes isn't outlawed, as far as I know**

[grendel]

That was painful...pure attrition on your part. Why have you punished us so?

[Z-Man]

Cool, this should keep me busy for the next couple lifetimes. I actually have one of the Travis McGee novels...A Tan and Sandy Silence! Which a friend loaned me and I plan to read this summer.

[Mad Man Mundt]

A few others I forgot.

George P. Pelicanos
Elmore Leonard (DUH! on my part)
Robert Ferrigno (Can be hit or miss)

[Z-Man]

Any opinions on Harry Crews?

[Cruikshank]

Anybody mentioned Charles Willeford yet? Be sure and check him out, his books are where Elmmore Leonard learned to write his crime novels. Speaking of Jim Thompson, whose some of his work I admire, has anybody here ever read the near legendary Ironside novel he wrote? Some critics I've read consider it to be one of his best. It typically sells for an outrageous price these days.

[Eli Cross]

Oh, please, some love for Loren Estleman and his terrific Amos Walker series.

The man has Chandler-esque stuff in his back pocket.

Read. Love. Enjoy.

Peace.

[imported_Adam Warren]

Some love for MacDonald. Spectacular. I cited the TRAVIS MCGEE classics in last year's "Summer Reading" thread. Alas, not a soul congradulated Me on My erudite suggestion which I made. On My own. Further more, nobody expressed an interest in the books.

I've a good set of the McGee books(about 15 of them) and I recall their goodness faintly. I should set about completing the set.

Essential reading.

[grendel]

You've got it down, AWar. The three MacDonalds are where good summer reading is at: Lew Archer, Travis McGee, and Irwin Maurice Fletcher.

Sorry I didn't give you love last summer. Had no idea you'd grow a vengeance beard over it.

[Mad Man Mundt]

Michael Connoley does a damn good job. Generally stick to the Harry Bosch novels although Void Moon was great.

[imported_Adam Warren]

Last summer your presence was not present, or so my poorly-functioning brain says, and as such, no love could be presented.

And are vengeance beards thicker than blofeld's prognathic cranium not a requirement to post here?

[grendel]

CHUD has made exception for the wimmins, but I don't know for how much longer.

[Subotai]

I liked Robert B. Parker when I was younger, but I can no longer stand him. Parker can write well, otherwise I wouldn't have stuck with the books for as long as I did. His creation of Hawk is balanced by the creation of Susan Silverman - easily the most irritating character in detective fiction. And Spenser, if you get past the self-deprecating bits, is hugely pretentious.

I liked the early Scudders, those when Scudder had not yet gotten on the wagon, lived in a hotel room by himself, and basically walked around with his head in a dark cloud. Now he talks way too much - but it has been a privilage to see the character evolve.

By far my most favorite hard-boiled series is Charles Willeford's Hoke Moseley series. It was posted on CHUD recently that Curtis Hanson snapped up the rights to these books, and I pray that they are made. The series is brutal and unforgiving, and Hoke Moseley, who is as far from the 300 lb-bench pressing, Chaucer-quoting Spenser as one could hope for, is one of the great characters in detective fiction. Check it out.

[d06]

I was browsing this stuff, I was wondering... How are the Dan Simmons books? They look really good.

[Burke]

grendel:
Take it about fifty steps darker and you have Andrew Vachss ultimate anti-hero BURKE, in the novels FLOOD, STREGA, BLUE BELLE, HARD CANDY, BLOSSOM, SACRIFICE, DOWN IN THE ZERO, FOOTSTEPS OF THE HAWK, FALSE ALLEGATIONS, DEAD AND GONE, and PAIN MANAGEMENT. I know them by heart, on account of I know the books by heart. They are (in a word, and with the exception of FALSE ALLEGATIONS) perfect.You are beautiful. :cool:

To those who have never sampled Vachss, SHELLA, not a Burke novel, is a good hard intro into Vachss oevre.

[Bizarro Zod Loves You All]

Also there is a book that just came out called "Heartbreak and Vine" that is about all the hardboiled pulp writers like Chandler and Leonard and their destruction at the hands of Hollywood. Could be an interesting piece to read after reading their work. I think the author is Hayes, but I'm not certain. If you pop the title in to Amazon I'm sure it will come up. The writer has a few of these film historicals out there. I've only read a little bit of it so far, but it manages to keep your interest. A lot of these guys led pretty interesting lives.

[d06]

I just got some books yesterday-
Chandler's The Big Sleep
Hammett's Maltese Falcon
Simmons's Hardcase

Im currently reading Hammett. I really like it. The Borders store near me was hving a buy one, get the second half off for the black lizard books, os I got Chandler and Hammett, and bought Hardcase becuase the blurb for HardFreeze on the web was awesome.

Great stuff.
Can someone tell me the order of the Marlowe stuff? I hate reading stuff out of order.

[Burke]

With Marlowe, the order you read stuff doesn't really matter. I can't remember any continued characters from book to book or short story to short story. Marlowe's situation never really changes either.

Be sure to check out any Chandler short stories (like Killer in the Rain) and also Hammett's Continental Op stuff.

[d06]

ok, thank you. I have to read Red Wind for my short story class soon. Im looking forward to it.

[Subotai]

A contemporary writer I can't get enough of is George P. Pelecanos - one of my must-buys. This is a guy who will be remembered.

[NathanW]

I've read Chandler, Hammett, Vachss, Pelecanos (Only one book though, Shame the Devil which was damn good) Himes, Thompson and I'm about to get into Mickey Spillane, god help me, that's going to be a wild ride.

[Grofield]

Chandler is better than Hammett, or at least more entertaining, so you'd be looking for THE BIG SLEEP, possibly some other Philip Marlowe stories. If you want strictly NOIR then you're looking for Jim Thompson, specifically POP. 1280 (made into the French film COUP DE TORCHON, in the sixties[?]).

Chandler better than Hammett? I wouldn't rush to that judgment. They both have different strengths and together make a nice contrast in style. Both of them were geniuses.

COUP DE TORCHON was released in 1981 and directed by Bertrand Tavernier. It's actually a very close adaptation of the novel, with Philippe Noiret giving a dead-on performance. I like POP. 1280 but prefer Thompson's other "psycho sheriff" novels -- THE KILLER INSIDE ME, WILD TOWN and THE TRANSGRESSORS.

We advance now to THE DETECTIVE by Roderick Thorp (who wrote NOBODY LIVES FOREVER, filmed as DIE HARD), which is superb, and I agree when critics state that it advances the detective novel into literature.

The novel is actually called NOTHING LASTS FOREVER, and it's a sequel to THE DETECTIVE. Both novels feature the same detective, Joe Leland, who somehow became Frank Sinatra and Bruce Willis in the movies.

Staying dark, we go to Richard Stark, and his PARKER novels (filmed a number of times, most recently as the weak-ass Gibson flick PAYBACK). He wrote about 17 of them twenty-odd years ago, and revitalized the series about 4 years ago with COMEBACK, then BACKFLASH, then FLASHFIRE, and coming soon FIRESTORM (?). These four are priceless gems, although even the old series is not too dated.

The Parker series ran from 1962 to 1974 before Stark's comeback in 1998. The newest books are: COMEBACK, BACKFLASH, FLASHFIRE, FIREBREAK, BREAKOUT and NOBODY RUNS FOREVER.

[The Alexor]

Does anybody if all the Parker novels will be made available? I love the format with the covers that keep the same look.

And is it because James Elroy is too obvious that he hasn't been named yet?

[Cameron Hughes]

Whoa, and you've inadvertently stumbled into the realm of grendel...

We talking vintage, or we talking current?

Vintage:

Chandler is better than Hammett, or at least more entertaining, so you'd be looking for THE BIG SLEEP, possibly some other Philip Marlowe stories. If you want strictly NOIR then you're looking for Jim Thompson, specifically POP. 1280 (made into the French film COUP DE TORCHON, in the sixties[?]).

If you're wanting to step up a few decades, then you want the Lew Archer series (made into the films HARPER and the substandard THE DROWNING POOL, with Paul Newman...THE BIG LEBOWSKI has, scene for scene, some MASSIVE homages to the film HARPER...pretty funny) by MacDonald, and many say (I don't know that I include myself) that Lew Archer is the inheritor of Chandler's Philip Marlow. While the books are good, I think it may take more than being in SoCal to be Marlowe's "successor". Also by McDonald (a different McDonald) are the Travis McGee books, about a beach bum/war hero, who lives on his boat in Florida. These too kick some ass. Both series are from the sixties/seventies.

We advance now to THE DETECTIVE by Roderick Thorp (who wrote NOBODY LIVES FOREVER, filmed as DIE HARD), which is superb, and I agree when critics state that it advances the detective novel into literature.

Then we hit the eighties (to the present), and Robert B. Parker's SPENSER novels. Ignore all you know (or THINK you know) of the three-season show on TV and realize that Parker's creation is indeed a literary giant.

Take it about fifty steps darker and you have Andrew Vachss ultimate anti-hero BURKE, in the novels FLOOD, STREGA, BLUE BELLE, HARD CANDY, BLOSSOM, SACRIFICE, DOWN IN THE ZERO, FOOTSTEPS OF THE HAWK, FALSE ALLEGATIONS, DEAD AND GONE, and PAIN MANAGEMENT. I know them by heart, on account of I know the books by heart. They are (in a word, and with the exception of FALSE ALLEGATIONS) perfect.

Staying dark, we go to Richard Stark, and his PARKER novels (filmed a number of times, most recently as the weak-ass Gibson flick PAYBACK). He wrote about 17 of them twenty-odd years ago, and revitalized the series about 4 years ago with COMEBACK, then BACKFLASH, then FLASHFIRE, and coming soon FIRESTORM (?). These four are priceless gems, although even the old series is not too dated.

Do not neglect or forget the inimitable horror author Dan Simmons, and his GREAT novel of last year, HARDCASE. He takes noir by the balls, then cuts it with a rusty scalpel. In Vachss category, or Stark's, for that matter.

Now, we remain in the present and talk Robert Crais, and his Elvis Cole series. Elvis is, moreso than Lew Archer, the TRUE inheritor of Marlowe's LA Independent Operator mantle. He, and his (largely silent) partner Joe Pike, takes on cases that unfold into something else, then something else again, and then all goes to shit. Beautiful books. Crais departure from these with DETONATION ANGEL and HOSTAGE mark "his maturity as a writer" and as such are bullshit. His most recent Elvis Cole novel, L.A. REQUIEM, is a beast of holy goodness, and was hailed by all near and far as a literary masterpiece. Crais is also a genius, and a cool guy to talk to. Former TV writer for Mr. Michael Mann's MIAMI VICE and LA LAW.

For future reference, take NOIR, by K.W. Jeter (the Blade Runner knock-offs) which is, oddly enough, NOIR, only about a couple hundred years advance.

For fantasy allegories, take Steven Brust's JHEREG, YENDI, TECKLA, TALTOS, PHOENIX, ATHYRA, ORCA, DRAGON, ISSOLA. These are noir, only in a world where humans don't dominate, but rather Draegarans do, sorcerous beings eight to nine feet tall who live three-four THOUSAND years, and every few centuries make devestating war on the human settlements to the east of their empire. The hero (anti, again) Vlad Taltos, (Taltos being Hungarian for "magician" or "sorcerer") is a human assassin, who joined the only noble house available to him, the JHEREG. This house's auspices cover organized crime.

There. My initial thoughts. All for you.

Read some now, thank me later.


GREAT list, but you forgot Lawrence Block. He is the master.

He writes the Matthew Scudder books. Scudder is an alcoholic living in New York and making it as an un-licensed P.I., they're bleak as Hell and I believe that EIGHT MILLION WAYS TO DIE and EVERYBODY DIES are the finest crime novels ever written. He's a fantastic character writer and not one of his characters is an innocent or a true monster, everyone has layers upon layers. Scudder ages, he starts out as a man in his late 30's and in the latest books he's pushing 60 and married to his long-time girlfriend, an ex-hooker turned real estate genius named Elaine. Have I mentioned that his best friend is a hardened career criminal? He'll kill anyone who crosses him, yet he would die for Scudder and Elaine.

Read him. Now. You'll thank me. Start Early.

WWW.LawrenceBlock.Com

[Subotai]

GREAT list, but you forgot Lawrence Block. He is the master.

He writes the Matthew Scudder books. Scudder is an alcoholic living in New York and making it as an un-licensed P.I., they're bleak as Hell and I believe that EIGHT MILLION WAYS TO DIE and EVERYBODY DIES are the finest crime novels ever written. He's a fantastic character writer and not one of his characters is an innocent or a true monster, everyone has layers upon layers. Scudder ages, he starts out as a man in his late 30's and in the latest books he's pushing 60 and married to his long-time girlfriend, an ex-hooker turned real estate genius named Elaine. Have I mentioned that his best friend is a hardened career criminal? He'll kill anyone who crosses him, yet he would die for Scudder and Elaine.

Read him. Now. You'll thank me. Start Early.

WWW.LawrenceBlock.Com


When you say start early, I follow your advice, literally. I find the earliest Scudders, In the Midst of Death, A Time to Murder and Create, and The Sins of The Fathers to be his best Scudders - and his best book, period. Scudder really evolved as a character in the late 80s-early 90s, and he definitely is not the same guy Block started off with. I'm not sure what this says about me as a person, but I enjoyed Scudder more when he was living alone in his hotel and in danger of falling off the wagon - kinda like Ken Bruen's Jack Taylor is now (and who admittedly owes a huge debt to Scudder).

Also throw in another push for Roderick Thorp - he passed away in the late 90s and his books are pretty tough to find. But worth it! The other day I picked up his novel 'Devlin' - the one with Bryan Brown on the cover for the Showtime cable adaptation. Great read.

[Cameron Hughes]

When you say start early, I follow your advice, literally. I find the earliest Scudders, In the Midst of Death, A Time to Murder and Create, and The Sins of The Fathers to be his best Scudders - and his best book, period. Scudder really evolved as a character in the late 80s-early 90s, and he definitely is not the same guy Block started off with. I'm not sure what this says about me as a person, but I enjoyed Scudder more when he was living alone in his hotel and in danger of falling off the wagon - kinda like Ken Bruen's Jack Taylor is now (and who admittedly owes a huge debt to Scudder).

Also throw in another push for Roderick Thorp - he passed away in the late 90s and his books are pretty tough to find. But worth it! The other day I picked up his novel 'Devlin' - the one with Bryan Brown on the cover for the Showtime cable adaptation. Great read.



There's something to be said about older Scudder. Have you read EIGHT MILLION WAYS TO DIE, THE DEVIL KNOWS YOU'RE DEAD, and A TICKET TO THE BONEYARD? I think the books become GREAT when Ballou, T.J., and Elaine are in his life.

Also, you MUST read EVERYBODY DIES. It's easily his darkest and most contemplative.

Ken Bruen gives props to Block in THE KILLING OF THE TINKERS. If there was no Block, there wouldn't be a Jack Taylor.

[Subotai]

There's something to be said about older Scudder. Have you read EIGHT MILLION WAYS TO DIE, THE DEVIL KNOWS YOU'RE DEAD, and A TICKET TO THE BONEYARD? I think the books become GREAT when Ballou, T.J., and Elaine are in his life.

Also, you MUST read EVERYBODY DIES. It's easily his darkest and most contemplative.

Ken Bruen gives props to Block in THE KILLING OF THE TINKERS. If there was no Block, there wouldn't be a Jack Taylor.

I've read all the Scudders soon after their release since the 1986 paperback for the film adaptation of Eight Million Ways to Die - the one with a scruffy Jeff Bridges aiming a revolver just over the reader's left ear on the cover.

Everybody Dies has the biggest body count, no doubt. And the more recent Scudders have merit, I just find they don't have the same punch as the earlier rain-sodden, angst-ridden Scudders. Even the most recent, All The Flowers Are Dying, winds up with a bloodily violent climax, but it still leaves me a little cold.

Eight Million Ways to Die ranks among the earlier Scudders. It came out in '82, just 6 years after Scudder premiered.

I don't mean to give the idea that the recent Scudders aren't good, because they surely are. But I miss the original incarnation of Scudder. One of the reasons many readers love Jack Taylor now.