Dubya? Gore? Nader? Buchanan? Browne? That disabled retired truck driver?

[raoul duke]

So who'd you vote for? If i was American, Nader would get my vote (And yes this could belong in the culture and free form, but there seems to be a dedicated small number of culturalites and free formers who are the only people to frequent it. And sorry Nick, i know you like the posts to be organized).

------------------
and a voice was screaming: Holy Jesus! What are these damn animals

[Adam McAllister]

This would be the first time I would think about voting 3rd party, but I liked them less than those other punks.

I went for Bush, although I would much rather have seen McCain take the nomination...

[generalzod]

McCain was my boy too, but thanks to Bush and his political whoring, he outspent and sucked more corporate cock than McCain would even consider.
The results are promising-Bush is probably going to lose.

[Brian Koukol]

Nader got my vote.

[mister Tibbs]

I voted for Raplh Nader, the only person on the ballot who isn't owned by corperations or lobbyists.

[Automatic Jack]

The Bush and Gore made me Ralph all over the booth.

Sorry. Had to be done.

------------------
My torso is cramping up!

[Mr_Skuid]

You mean the elections are finally going to be over after six months of TV advertising.

[willko]

i'm in new york state where gore was going to win handily howsoever i voted, so i threw a bone to the green party and voted nader.

/willko.

[Django]

I didn't.

I passed out and only just moments ago came to after hearing of the Milius Conan 3 project...

[Adam McAllister]

YAY!

[willko]

dubya wins. fuck nuts.

/willko.

[highdive]

there are guys running thru the streets screaming "George Bush!!! YEAHHHHH!!!!!"

[highdive]

Like they always say, "it ain't over til it's over."

3:44AM on Wednesday November 8, AND THIS BITCH OF AN ELECTION JUST AIN'T OVER!!!!



------------------
YYYYIIAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Patricia Arquette, in True Romance.

[lamotta]

I am so fucking pissed at Nader. Its 5:41 a.m. est, and everything hinges on Florida. I hate people. So much. Incoherency is appropriate, sometimes.

[BlackCrowe]

630 AM Central Time

And its all up to FLORIDA.

Dear God,

Please dont let George W Bush win.
His daddy was a lying SOB that armed 3rd world countries and then attacked them. His son will be the same.

Amen.

[BlackCrowe]

Does anyone find it at all odd that this is all awaiting the "recount" in Florida where George's brother Jeb is in power?
Something fishy is going on.
I think Jeb is trying to find a way to make sure Florida goes to his brother. I am telling y'all, it reeks of foulness.

[Coyote]

"You mean the elections are finally going to be over after six months of TV advertising."

Heh. They're saying it may go into the weekend. Hastur flies to Florida tomorrow to settle this all out.
(Ok, she's going for an SCA event, but I'm TELLING people she's going there to sort it all out.)

Why don't we make it a true Race To The White House? Start in San Franscisco, and sprint to Pen Ave.

[generalzod]

Must be nice to have a brother to rig the election for ya. Too bad Al doesn't have any siblings in office, maybe he could have used some muscle to beat Georgie boy.


I say we string Jebby up by his heels!

Who's with me?

[Coyote]

The Attonery General of FL is one of Gore's head campaign guys.
Either winner will have the spectre of cheating following him around, no matter what happens.

[LowShot]

This just goes to show that Florida is lame.

..Or maybe the rest of us are lame and Florida is laughing at us. Who knows?

But I voted Nader as well.

[BlackCrowe]

ok , Time to ABOLISH the electorial college.

Gore is ahead by a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND votes, total in the country.

Bush can win Florida by about 1000 votes, giving him the victory.

BUT GORE would still have damn near 200,000 MORE actual VOTES!!!!

"Every Vote Counts"

.........Bull-Fuckin-Shit!

The man with the MOST VOTES SHOULD BE PRESIDENT! PERIOD!

Fuck the "electorial college"

Viva La Revolution!!!

[Coyote]

This is why I dislike the EC.
CNN actually mentioned this election may cause reform in that area.

[DJEvil]

F*ckin Florida! Always messin things up! With their Hawaaiian shirts and straw hats! Why don't they go back where they came from?

...Fuggin Canadan immagrants...

[Cruikshank]

Of course Florida is fucking this up for the rest of the country. what else should you expect from the dong state?

[Hellblazer]

I'm with Crowe 110% on this one. "Every vote counts" my natural black ass. I voted for Gore in a state that went to Bush, so my vote counted for the square root of fuck all. In an all-or-nothing electoral college system, votes for the guy who loses mean nothing. I figured that out whent I took my first government class in the ninth grade. When I was fifteen, for crying out loud. So why haven't we changed the way we run our elections?

Hellblazer

[grendel]

Here's how the system works:

You vote. Then, SMART people HAND-SELECTED vote. Then we count the votes of the smart people that we hand-selected.

Who's vote counts?

Guess.


Nader got mine, and the wife's. I want Green to get their federal funding next time 'round. Probably won't happen. We'll need another Stealth bomber by then, or another inquest into how long, metrically, the president's clit is.

WHORES!!!

[Blofeld]

"the dong state."

heh heh hee heh

[BlackCrowe]

"the dong state"

Yep, looks like we are pissing all over Cuba.

[Innocent X]

I think the electrical college works. States like New York and California and Illinois should have more pull. That's where the intelligence and ingeniuty in this country is, the founding fathers did that for a reason. Neither they nor I wanted to have someone in office because all the rubes out in the sticks think someone should be President "cause his wife's real purty."

[Shelby]

My step dad just called and told me that now in Florida they just found a ballot box (or whatever it is) that had been 'lost'...so add yet another delay. This whole Florida thing is nuts

[This message has been edited by Shelby (edited 11-08-2000).]

[BlackCrowe]

innocent never ceases to amaze me!

.....but dont worry he too will grow up!

[DJEvil]

Damn Florida confused the ballot box for a coconut tree. I swear, if we don't nuke em soon, they'll go Lord of the Flies on us...

[grendel]

"Sharpen a stick at both ends," Jack said, his voice a thing of stone and broken glass.

[Blofeld]

They found the missing ballot box in Jeb's moonshine still.

[grendel]

This was my CHUD fact submission for the day:

Because the taut electoral race in Florida could not be decided upon recount, a drunk and high Scott Baio is to throw three darts at a board covered in pasted pictures blown up from a print of 'The Accused'. A hit on Foster counts for Bush, the drunken frat crowd for Gore. Best two of three throws wins.

******************
I couldn't let it languish in ignominy.

[LowShot]

DJ disses on Florida, while he lives in Alabama. Now, I'm not saying much here because I live in Georgia, but still. . .

[grendel]

...there seems to be a flawed logic at work there, yes?

[Eli Cross]

Because of the advanced age of the average Floridian, I only hope that, when they saw the name "Buchanan" on the ballot, they weren't thinking "James".

Peace.

[Jacob Singer]

I think we need to start a new conspiracy theory, implicating Jeb in the rigging of the Florida ballots, heheh.

I mean, it IS kind of a coincidence that the state that will decide the election is governed by a brother of one of the candidates. http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/wink.gif

[Blofeld]

If only Jeb were that capable...

[Nick Nunziata]

Georgia of the 1980 when I moved here was asswater.

Now it's among the great states in out little country. Alabama and Florida...

Like comparing Steve Guttenberg and Marc Pillow to DeNiro.

[GDog]

Well since I seem to be the only poster here actually born and living in florida let me give my perspective.

First of all that bullshit you heard about democrats in Palm Beach County being pissed because due to a way the ballot was set up they may have voted for Buchanan is not really so much bullshit. I'm a democrat, and I live in Palm Beach County. I won't get into the specifics, they have a picture of the ballot rotating on MSNBC, I'll just say that it was a little confusing. I almost checked off Buchanan myself, but realized my mistake and checked off Gore like I had intended. Most people did likewise, but there are probably a small number number (old folks with cataracts) that didn't.

Now listen to this, in Palm Beach County, which is a democratic leaning county and also has probably the largest population of jews in ALL of florida, got 3400 votes for Buchanan. That's a significant spike compared to most other counties.

Then there's the fact that Dade County, and Broward County got their counts in late. People in Dade...well let's just say that this is the same county where the city of Miami when bankrupt, and it was later revealed that the mayor and the city officials had for years been engaged in corrupt activities, and at least one CONFIRMED COUNT OF VOTE FRAUD IN A LOCAL ELECTION.

Add to that you've got missing ballot boxes being reported in Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties; and this is more unlikely, but there are accusations of voter intimidation in Dade, and some blacks are crying foul over the possibility that ballots of blacks were discarded.

[Will]

The entire issue of the electorial college is a good one to examine. Most Gore supporters, that weren't on drugs, knew and expected that Gore would probably lose the popular vote, but could win on the electorial count. They didn't want to talk about it before the election, figuring that if people bitched, he'd still be in office, while the systems was reformed, if it ever would be fixed.

All of a sudden, it looks like it might go the other way and Gore will wind up with the largest share of the popular vote and Bush might win the electorial college vote. Now that pisses them off. The Bush supporters who were bitching that Gore might win only because of the electorial college are smuggly happy in their knowledge that if Bush wins the electorial college, there is nothing the Gore folks can do about it.

How can we find fault with the canidates (Almost sounds like Canadians, doesn't it?) when we have a system that allows the electorial college to decide, when the canidates spend their time and money on those states with the biggest electorial count? If those are the rules then thats what we have to live with.

Remember, the electorial college was set up when neither women or black Americans could vote. The founding fathers didn't want any illiterates, like me, voting and they thought only land owners should vote. That was the original reason for the electorial college.

Things have changed and you better believe that the MAN, those who control both parties, want that electorial college to keep the dumbass people (you and me) from having too much voice at all in the elections. Only 25 of the 50 states are required to vote for the canidate that the people in those states voted for. That means that even if Bush wins Florida, the electorial representatives could vote for Gore and face what, as a consequence? A fine? Who cares. Lets remember this and fix that bad boy, only remember that we better do it fast while people still remember. I don't know who won this election, I only know who lost. You and me and every other American. Let's take back what we can, given this set of circumstances, when people are confused and pissed off. Let's abolish the damn electorial college. Can you imagine an election where your vote actually counted, even if you disagreed with the other assholes in your state? How refreshing. How AMERICAN. Well, it used to be American.




[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-08-2000).]

[grendel]

Will is a hero.


And for all the corruption in Florida: KICK ASS, by Carl Hiaasen. University of Florida Press. It's his investigative journalism columns, not his crime fiction.

It is a fine and noble work.

And although the election is over (although still being counted), go and buy and read PARLIAMENT OF WHORES by P.J. O'Rourke, an inveterate Republican who nonetheless makes sense of our entire political system while at the same time pointing out how utterly ruinous it is for the future of America. Like the 97% Ruling that Congress churned out.

Goes like this: If you are a farmer in an area where tomatos grow, and America's Dept. of Agriculture decides enough tomatos are already being grown, all you have to do is register with them and state that you are PLANNING on growing tomatos. They will then pay you 97% of WHAT YOUR BEST CROP SOLD FOR IN YOUR BEST YEAR. To do what?

To not grow tomatos.

At least, they'll do that if you have a sizable tract of land and are a farming conglomerate. If you're the little guy, mom & pop shop, they'll tell you to bugger off.

Change. Is it necessary? You betcha.

[BlackCrowe]

Damn Grendel, I said the same thing hours ago, but WILL is your hero?!

I feel used, and Cheap.

[grendel]

Because you are both.

And I can't even REMEMBER a couple of hours ago, sorry.

[Blofeld]

How can you say that your vote doesn't count in the current system? A difference of roughly 1700 will decide the election ...

[BlackCrowe]

Ok, it counts IF YOU LIVE IN FLORIDA at this point.

Back atcha!

Go tell the 270,000 voters (more than BUSH) that there votes count!

Bush can win by 1000 or so votes in florida to win the election.

However 270,000 more people ,in the country voted for Gore.
So a majority rules? Every vote counts? only if we put GORE in office.

Damn the electorial college!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
.......MISS AMERICA GAVE ME THE CLAP

[This message has been edited by BlackCrowe (edited 11-08-2000).]

[grim_fist]

There are smart people in Illinois?

[Innocent X]

Will in 2004!!!!

[Coyote]

"I think the electrical college works. States like New York and California and Illinois should have more pull. That's where the intelligence and ingeniuty in this country is, the founding fathers did that for a reason. Neither they nor I wanted to have someone in office because all the rubes out in the sticks think someone should be President "cause his wife's real purty." "

I'm hoping IX is being sarcastic. Especially about the founding fathers focusing on California & Illinois (the hidden 14th & 15th Original Colonies).
Cause, ya know, EVERY bit of new technology comes from Des Moines & LA.

[WacoKid]

Don't blame me - I voted for Kodos.

Its interesting to watch the Republicans state, in the case of the 3400 "Buchanan" votes, that the people need to take the responsibility. If they can't vote "right", that's their problem.

It was amusing to watch a Senator from FL ( damn - forgot his name ) comment that "Why didn't other counties have this problem? Why was it only in this one?" and have the reporter say "It was the only county with those ballots." The poor guy was speechless.

[WacoKid]

And oh yeah - Nader didn't get his forms in on time in NC, so he wasn't on the ballot. I voted for Gore, and wound up in a decent minority.

[Neil Bung]

Actually, it was a miniscule amount of voters that brought Wisconsin over to the Gore side, too. I was watching the local telecast, and locally, the race was 48 percent to 48 percent (with Nader getting 4) for hours, with Bush and Gore switching positions every fifteen minutes or so. So that one vote did make a difference. It just would have made MORE of a difference in Florida.

In retrospect, I'll be glad I didn't vote for Nader - if it helps keep Bush out; if not, I'll be annoyed that I wasn't able to pitch in for him. I'm still pissed that I had to vote for an "okay" candidate to keep a crappy one out, just because there are so many voters in my state who wanted to vote for the crap one. Funny that even in WI, a swing state by all accounts, Nader pulled more support than in most others. What the hell happened to all those Nader voters in the "secure" states? Considering all the rumblings about him, I would have expected a much better percentage. Did all the Naderites in the non-swing states chicken out and vote Gore?

But I agree with the dismantling of the electoral system (and I even said that when it looked like the Republicans would lose because of it). It seems like the number of votes each state gets is sort of arbitrary.

[Blofeld]

Arbitrary? Add the number of senators from a given state plus the number of members in the House of Representatives for that state ... Hmmmm, suspiciously it's the same number of electoral votes for that state. Arbitrary?

[Coyote]

The number of elected officials in seats seems kinda arbitrary....


*ducks*

[Blofeld]

Every state gets 2 senators. And the number of Representatives in the House is based upon population ...

It's population per state that's arbitrary!

[Hellblazer]

Hey, watch your mouth, Nunziata. I live in Alabama too and...

Waitaminit, I hate this fuckhole of a state. Never mind.

Hellblazer

[Jason Pollock]

While we took in Buffy, Angel, and the first Evil Dead, my would-be love interest kept track of the election. She has a friend that has NO IDEA how the system works-so we had to explain it.

We talked of our disdain for the electoral college-how the people's vote should count.

About an hour later, we were watching CNN coverage-and this girl sighed and said that everybody should just vote for Dave Matthews.

I suddenly realized that no matter how flawed it is-the college exists for a reason...

Mickey Mouse gets votes.

Hulk Hogan get votes.

Pat Buchannan gets votes.

Some people are retarded.

[Neil Bung]

Okay, I didn't quite explain myself correctly there. It's not that the electoral votes are arbitrary. It's more the idea that the electoral votes don't accurately reflect the will of the people, but can determine the election.

To overexplain myself: for instance, a huge advantage in one state may garner a candidate a measly few electoral votes, but a very small advantage may get the candidate a ton of electoral votes in another. Not to mention, population doesn't necessarily determine voter turnout state-by-state, yet it does determine the criteria for the number of electoral votes.

Seems like it would just make more sense to go by popular vote (or perhaps divide up the electoral votes by percentage in all states as Maine does).

[Neil Bung]

Point taken, HAM, but it IS a pretty sloppy system. If you look at the popular results, though, they seem to stick GENERALLY to the same few guys (and if Nader couldn't pull the 5 percent, what chance does Dave Matthews have?).

The question is: if a popular vote ever get high enough in a state to actually win that state for, say, write-in candidate Hulk Hogan, what would the electoral college do in that state? Would the vote be split? Would Hulk actually get it? Would they take the next highest candidate?

I'm not being sarcastic. Does anyone have any idea?

[Blofeld]

Perhaps, dependent upon Florida state law, it might be smartest thing for Florida to split their electoral votes -- say 13 to Gore, 12 to Bush. Neither party would have 270, and it would be up to New Mexico and Oregon (the two other states undeclared with respect to electoral votes).

Interesting...

[BlackCrowe]

The only problem with that

is that it makes SENSE.


and we ARE talking about the Government here.

to blofelds post below, it still makes sense.

[This message has been edited by BlackCrowe (edited 11-08-2000).]

[Blofeld]

My bad.

It would have made sense if I had understood how the electoral college actually works ...

You see, there aren't 25 electoral college voters in Florida ... there are 250. Each represented party (10) has 25 representatives. Whichever party gets the majority vote in a state sends its electoral representatives in, and they each get 1 electoral vote.

So, it's unlikely to split ... if Bush wins the popular Florida vote, it's doubtful that some of the committed Republican electoral voters will not vote Bush.

Damn...

Sorry all...

[lamotta]

Bung (I love referring to you as "Bung") I'll have to defer that question to another chuddite. I'm about to vent in a rather unintelligible fashion that will piss off some people here but I need to do it so here it goes -

Fuck the electoral college. Everyone knows its an antiquated system that nobody's bothered to change in 204 years. Its fucking bullshit.

Fuck you if you voted for Nader. You fucking idiots knew it would be a tight race but instead you went for a man with a huge ego who probably knew that the right thing to do was to endorse Gore but couldn't find the humility to do it. He didn't even get 5% of the vote, you fucking morons!

Fuck you harder if you voted for Bush. The man is fucking retarded. He's not bright. He's going to take naps while his dad and Dick Cheney will run the country which is comforting compared to Bush, Jr. running. The guy is obviously an idiot and if you voted for him I have absolutely no fucking respect for you.

Say goodbye to any enviromental progress, any civil rights legislation, and the hope that our President will be smart and well qualified to do his job.

I am so fucking pissed.

Just let the Northeast and California vote from now on you assholes. We're obviously better equiped to deal with the responsibility of our civic duty.

Fuck the South. Fuck the Midwest. You stupid pieces of shit.

Ok, that's it. Keep in mind I am NOT directing this to anyone in chudland, but i need to vent cause i'm raw as hell. I'm disgusted with this country and at the same time proud that labor and minority turn out made this race as close as it is.

If you can't see that the Democratic platform is the right direction for this country, then maybe this country deserves what it will get:

Our first mentally handicapped President. I thought Joe Leiberman was breaking new ground. Fuck.

[raoul duke]

You know right now i'm glad i'm in Canada, wait our prime minister makes dubya look like a great orattorr. At least the US has 2 parties, we've had one party in power for 85 of the last 100 years. We don't have term limits for our PM, and he can call the election whenever the fuck he wants, so he can stay in power for that extra long time till he becomes corrupted (though he was to start off with) and just starts doing projects and never finishes them. Our current PM has started then cancelled a bunch of projects costing taxpayers billions of dollars. Both countries need election reform and fast. Though if the electoral college was staffed with chudders then it would probably be okay, but the fact is i figure most of the people on the electoral college board (is that what it's called?) are just as dumb as the general population. Also think of it this way, Dubya is an idiot and chances are his reign of terror will fuck the republican party in the ass for the next couple elections. Still i wish nader had gotten 5% of the vote.

------------------
and a voice was screaming: Holy Jesus! What are these damn animals

[lamotta]

Now that I've calmed down, I wish Nader had gotten 5% of the vote too. The fact that he didn't makes Gore losing that much more painful.

Wow... the Canadian political system seems to be more fucked than ours. I'm sure there's a reform movement of some kind, right?

Que Sera Sera What ever will be will be

[Will]

As to whether or not your vote counts and the electorial college system is any good.

If you voted for Bush, but you live in California, your vote meant nothing. If you voted for Gore and you live in Georgia, your vote meant nothing. No person who voted in a state where their canidate lost, had their vote mean anything. Witness the fact that George W. will probably be your next President, yet more Americans voted for Gore than Bush. I am not saying Bush shouldn't be the President. Those were the rules in the election and the canidates knew that. Bush won more states, but Gore won more overall votes. In other words more Americans wanted Gore than Bush, but they will get Bush. Sorry, the system is broken and its broken and has been allowed to remain broken for too long. Imagine a situation where the networks can't "Project" a winner, 30 seconds after the polls close in a state, like they did all night long last night and they were wrong. Wrong, because they failed to tell people they were not relying on the vote, but rather on polls.

If we do away with the electorial college, we can vote, go to bed, get up and find out who the American people decided they wanted to be their President. If the electorial system is so great, why don't we apply the same thing to our Senate races and Congressional districts and Mayors and whatever? Because it is a very bad system.

This may be the only time in your lives that there is a real chance to eliminate the electorial college. Since the man that most American's voted for, will not be the President, most Americans will be unhappy with the system and this is the time to fix it. I encourage you to talk to people and join in the effort get rid of this ancient monster. Besides if its something Americans of all political persuations want, they can get rid of it, working together and wouldn't that be comething very rare and nice indeed. Those in power, real power, will hate this whole idea. I can hear them now, "Just imagine the damned seething, teeming, dirty stupid masses, thinking they have some voice in all this."

This is our chance to say it loud and clear,to those who really have control. "FUCK YOU!"

P.S. Do you get the feeling that lomotta is realy pissed off? Whew! Dude! lamota, channel that pissed ofeed=ness into geting rid of the reason your man lost. Its the electorial college, you should be pissed of about. Channel it man, channel that hatred.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-08-2000).]

[BlackCrowe]

well said.

[Coyote]

As a transplanted Northerner in the South:
I bet I can find just as many stereotypical total idiots hanging around Boston as you can hanging around Austin.
"Just let the Northeast and California vote from now on you assholes. We're obviously better equiped to deal with the responsibility of our civic duty."

No, you have more civic LEADERS that do. NEVER confuse the american political elite with the brainpans of the people who have to live under the idgits.
Brains do not equal political power. Responsibility seldom does. Some places have managed to clean up their pool more than others. Don't piss in the other pools because the grime is better entrenched and needs more elbow grease.
Now, go write that 50 times on the blackboard.

[Psycho Bill]

I honestly couldn't care less about any of the canidates. The only reason I am looking forward to hearing the results for this election is so I can prepare myself for the next four years for whomever wins the presidency. I can start marking off how many days until the next election and hope that someone will run that is competent.

Hey! I finally hit 300! "Yippee!"

------------------
Would you like to know more?

[lamotta]

Will, thanks for the tip. Probably shouldn't have written everything I did in a very angry and tired state and would retract most of it in a rational discussion. We'll see how this turns out. I will accept whoever wins the electoral college - those are indeed the current rules of the game and both candidates knew it.

I doubt that the electoral college system will be overturned anytime soon because doing so would invalidate the soon to be revealed result of this election. But hope springs eternal.

And to any one in the south or midwest, and anyone who voted for Bush or Nader, my apologies if i offended.

Will, you're right - I'm just angry because it looks like Gore's going to lose. I'll get over it. Peace.

[Will]

lamotta: Don't give it a second thought. Sometimes I think only people who feel pastionately, about something. will ever get anything done in our world. Those that are always bored or worse, will rarely accomplich much. First you have to CARE, then you can do. I don't disagree with your fire, I just want to point ou that if you direct that passion towards a goal, it can be a very good thing.

[Refrozen Seabass]

To clarify the Canadian system a little.

We vote for the party representative of our choice in the riding in which we live. As it turns out, my riding is that of the Conservative party leader, so I would be voting directly for the next PM should I lean that way. But that's just luck. We vote for the Member of Parliament of our choice. All the MP's head to Ottawa, and the party with the most MP's wins. The leader of that party is the Prime Minister, but every MP that won, whether their party won the whole ball of wax or not, sits in the Legislature.

More or less what goes on in the states, isn't it? Or did you have to vote BUSH or GORE or NADER or whoever, regardless of where you live?

------------------
Why did the Chtorran cross the road?

[Innocent X]

"I'm hoping IX is being sarcastic. Especially about the founding fathers focusing on California & Illinois (the hidden 14th & 15th Original Colonies).
Cause, ya know, EVERY bit of new technology comes from Des Moines & LA."

Nope, wasn't being sarcastic. Of course, Cali and Illinois weren't colonies, that's what makes the founding fathers even more briliant. The electoral college system was adaptable to what the country may become. Cali and Illinois, among others, are states where large amounts of people live and a great amount of important,intelligent, and hard-working people live. Places like that and New York should have more pull than Montana and many places in the South, not only based on population, but by the kind of people who choose to live there. I'd rather have people in business and technology fields, people who create things with their minds and their pens, having the most influence on this country, not a bunch of farmers and moonshiners and people who's families have lived in the same one-horse town for 200 years. That's why the vote should be weighted. HAM is right, people are retarded and vote for Mickey Mouse and it is the brilliance of the founding fathers to realize that this would be the case for the lifetime of America. Cali and Illinois weren't on the map, but they were in the plans.

As far as if your vote does not count in a state where your choice was defeated, that is totally ridiculous. Your vote counts because it is important to get out and make a choice, to be a part of democracy. Voting for the loser is not the problem, not voting at all is. When I was in college, I didn't vote for Clinton the first time around, I voted for the Socialist party because those were the kind of ideas I embraced at the time. I was being rebelious and disliked the capitalist machine. Buy by this logic, people would say I wasted my vote because the Socialist Party didn't win and that's bullshit. I went out and voted and made a protest, my own little protest, just like the people who voted for Nader, shit maybe even the idiots who vote for Mickey Mouse. It's not a waste if you take the time to be heard, to choose, to stand on some ground.

And I don't think Des Moines is in Illinois http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Innocent X (edited 11-09-2000).]

[grendel]

You are correct. Des Moines is a French philosopher. He's the one that said "To do is to be".



[This message has been edited by grendel (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Coyote]

" I'd rather have people in business and technology fields, people who create things with their minds and their pens, having the most influence on this country, not a bunch of farmers and moonshiners and people who's families have lived in the same one-horse town for 200 years. "

You need to get out more. I'm not being sarcastic (and I'm not calling you an idiot. I seldom do that on these boards), you really do need to open your eyes with a tad more experience (or at least research) before stating things like that.
Not because I disagree with your sentiment, but because you're slamming the TECHNOLOGICAL centers in the South..and there are a shitload of them...you say are so superior in NY. I'd be willing to bet that if your took a cenus, it'd be a close race. Computers boomed in Silicon Valley, but guess what...the HQ of a majority of IT companies aren't there. They go where the land is cheaper, because it makes better business sense. A programmer or architect in Austin or Houston or Savannah or Atlanta is going to make slightly less than those in NYC or LA or San Fran...but since the cost of living is lower, they're in effect making more. It's more attractive (although not the only reason).
And say you live in NYC. You love it. But you get a job offer that's too attractive to pass up and you move to a southern state. Oops, can't vote anymore.
As for farming, welcome to the USA. I'd like to point you to the Mainers. The upstate New York farmers. The farmers in California whose grandfathers farmed. The Pensylvania Dutch. The term "Moonshine" was popularized by smugglers in the north, not south.

My point is this whole North & South superiority idealistic crap is black & white and severely outdated and blatantly predjudiced. It's akin to me saying a man's opinion doesn't count because he's black. Get over it. There are idiots everywhere you go, and brainiacs, too. I know several people who graduated college at age 19 who came from a one-horse farm town.
If I remember correctly, some came from the south, some came from the north.




[This message has been edited by Coyote (edited 11-09-2000).]

[WacoKid]

The fact is this, regardless of what anyone thinks of the electoral college:

Had Gore actually spent one lowsy freakin day in his own home state ( Tennessee ), maybe he could have WON HIS OWN STATE.

And this would all be irrelevant, as the 11 electoral votes from TN would have given him 271 ( hey, I can add! Maybe *I* can be president! )

Here's what we can look forward to for the next four years: http://politics.slate.msn.com/Features/bushisms/bushisms.asp

[Innocent X]

"You need to get out more."

Interesting because I think that's the whole point. I come from a one-horse town myself, but I don't live there anymore. I left that insular place. My beef is with people who never ever see another viewpoint than the one they grew up with, the one their parents grew up with, the one their grandparents, etc. They just stay on the farm or at the mill or whatever for their entire lifetime. I think, and from my viewpoint the FF agreed, that the people who move to the big cities, the port cities, the Chicagos, the LA's, the SF's, the New York's, and search out experience and gain perspective, should have more power in what goes on in this country than some dirt farmer in Kansas.

And I've been to a lot of places in the south and I found them to be cultural wastelands. Not all of them, but some of them, the ones who get like 4 electoral votes. If I'm arrogant for thinking that my opinion counts more than someone in South Carolina because I live in NYC, then I'm arrogant. I think that the guy from SC should have a vote, I certainly believe in that right, but I don't think he and his boys should have as much power as me and mine. And the system seems to agree with me.

[This message has been edited by Innocent X (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Neil Bung]

Hmmm... interesting, Innocent. Here you are discussing this issue with more than a few of us who are from those southern and midwestern states "in the sticks," and we seem to be grasping what you're saying just fine. (And, to address lamotta's since retracted comment, Gore did do pretty well -or at least "well enough" - in "the midwest" if you consider Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc. "the midwest" - or perhaps we go under the "great lakes" category?)

Guess when ol' Bessie kicked me in the side of the head this mornin', it must've jarred somethin' loose in the ol' thinker!

Come on, Innocent. Just because I choose not to live in a major metropolitan area doesn't make me less worldly or intelligent than anyone else. If anything, my crack habit does that. Got any left over or did you use it all before your last few posts? http://www.chud.com/board/ubbhtml/smile.gif

[malinari]

"I think that the guy from SC should have a vote, I certainly believe in that right, but I don't think he and his boys should have as much power as me and mine. And the system seems to agree with me."

Of course you feel this way. Everyone feels that the place that they live is more relevant than any other. That is normal. But the system doesn't agree with you. The system only allows people in NYC, for example, more votes due to population...not because anyone feels that people in NYC or any other place are more capable at making decisions.

As to the Southern bashing seen on this board: I am originally from Ky ( no the grass is not blue nor are there any mountains where I come from ) I now live and work near Atlanta. I am educated ( I write computer software and design systems that effect many of you every day ) and I am Southern. I have seen few farmers either in Kentucky or here in Georgia. Actually, look it up and you will see that most of the farmers are not in the South...but are in the Midwest. Here where I live the average incomes are proportionately higher than in almost any Northern state and our cost of living is much lower as well, our crime rate is vastly lower, our job rate is higher, and most kids can go to school without having to worry about getting killed or succumbing to drugs or drug related crimes. Can the same be said for these larger cities...of course not. I am not bashing NYC or any other city nor am I claiming that the south is idyllic. What I am saying is that most Northerners have a GREAT misconception of southern towns and people. What I think is funny is the sheer number of Northerners who move here and never want to leave. Sure they make fun with their friends and act like they are better...but when it comes down to it they will tell you that they hated there style of life where they came from. Just remember, there are not any more trailer-trash, redneck, racist, or any other negative southern stereotypical people here than there are in the north. So all of you south bashers…just back off. The people here are just as intelligent and educated as you. They want the same things for their families as you and they have the same basic everyday needs, goals, and dreams as well. Don’t just blindly perpetuate falsehoods based solely on stereotypes and the punch lines to jokes. Think about it!

[lamotta]

Malinari, thanks for your thoughts. I do apologize for my bashing. Although yesterday I was angry, disgusted, and disillusioned, I find myself in relatively good spirits today. I love the fact that there are protests in Florida right now. I've had more intelligent conversations (in the real world) with people who both agree and disagree with my politically than I have since college.

If this historic situation encourages open honest and serious political dialogue - here on Chud, and in our lives, than maybe this isn't entirely for naught. Americans have been complacent politically since the 1960's - its time we take stock in who we are, what we believe in, and talk about it.

Its important.

19,000 votes thrown away for "double voting" in a county that is predominantly comprised of elderly retired Jewish folk. I doubt very much Buchanan was their choice considering he's denied the holocaust ever happened.

I find the above sad but encouraging that people are not letting this stand. I call for a new vote in that county, because 19,000 votes were tossed due to a misleading ballad, and Bush is only up by around 370.

If Bush truly believes in the "will of the people," he should publicly endorse a new vote in that county. But he won't, because he knows he'll lose.

Why am I enjoying this, all of a sudden?

[This message has been edited by lamotta (edited 11-09-2000).]

[Seahawk]

Here in Colorado we passed marajuana, but said no on Education Grants.

Here in Colorado we passed a gun show issue on plain and simple emotion.

Here in Colorado, we have the worst written amendments and referndums.

But, hey! Florida has more problems than we do! Our machines are nice and electronic so HA!

toodles


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"Hold onta' ya' butts!'

[This message has been edited by Seahawk (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Adverb]

To Innocent X: Buddy, you're an idiot. I registered just to tell you that.

"Places like that and New York should have more pull than Montana ...I'd rather have people in business and technology fields, people who create things with their minds and their pens, having the most influence on this country, not a bunch of farmers and moonshiners and people who's families have lived in the same one-horse town for 200 years. "

First off, I'm from Montana. I'm absolutely certain that I'm more intelligent than you. Montana is an area of major growth in technology fields (particularly Bozeman and Billings), and Montana State University is an exceptional school for engineering and the sciences. Montana was the first state to elect a woman to congress, Jeannette Rankin.

Second, Montanans have MORE influence than people in most other states. We have a population somewhere between 700 and 800 thousand. California has a population of 33 million. We have 3 electoral votes. California has 54. Do the math. Sorry you're probably not capable: Montana has a population 2% the size of California's, yet we have nearly 6% of their number of electoral votes. My vote has 3 times the sway of any Californian's vote, or any New Yorker's.

[DJEvil]

SCIENTOLOGIST!

[Django]

See, we should have all voted for Christopher Lambert...

[lamotta]

Adverb, keep posting!

[Innocent X]

Well, it's nice to hear from the Treasure State. I hope you use your registration to do more than talk about my idiocy. There's lots more to do around the CHUD boards.

I guess I pissed a lot of people off with my statements. I wanted to give an argument for why the electoral college works and why it was put in place. I guess doing it in the ethnocentric way I did was a little hasty. And perhaps a little nasty because I made it a bit too over the top, with too many generalities. I apologize.

Obviously I don't think everyone from Montana and the South are slack-jawed morons. Obviously, I don't think that everyone from New York and California are intelligent, well-minded creatures. It's just my experience that there is a higher percentage of intelligence and national thought in the major states and cities. That's all. The population centers of the U.S. carry the most weight in national elections. Is it only because the more the populace, the more the reps, hence the more electoral votes? Technically, yes. My theory, my contention, is that there's is another level to that. The reason that there is a group of citizens concentrated somewhere is because there is something important being handed out in those areas. Whatever you want to call it: industry, culture, etc. I believe that iron sharpens iron. Being around the best, makes you the best. Being in New York or San Francisco or Chicago puts you up against the best in your field, or your way of life, or just your mindset, and this group of citizens is made up from people all over the nation, all over the world. It makes you a stronger, faster, more knowledgeable, more understanding. But of course, there are exceptions throughout the U.S.

Your math backs up your statement Adverb(good name BTW) and is an interesting argument to voting power. I can't really deny that. I could argue that with less than .5 percent of Montana's population being black and about 2% being Hispanic-- less than .1% of the national totals in each case---that Montana's racial breakdown puts it in a position where it should not have much power in a national election. I could say that Montana is turning into one of the most elderly communities in the U.S. and I for one do not want the elders of this country making decisions for the young. It's just not the way it should be. America was always meant to be a young man's land.

[This message has been edited by Innocent X (edited 11-10-2000).]

[BlackCrowe]

Innocent, give it up man.
The last few posts you've made are making you look extremely ignorant.

[Neil Bung]

Saying America was always supposed to be a young man's land (and I'm gonna ignore the undercurrent of ageism and sexism that could be taken from that statement) is akin to saying that America was always supposed to be a Christian nation. Or it was always supposed to be a white nation. Even if it was true to some people at some point (and refresh my memory about it being a "young man's land," if you don't mind - who said that?), it doesn't make it right.

[This message has been edited by Neil Bung (edited 11-10-2000).]

[DJ Dylan]

fuck the normal political parties.im voting for the Socialist Party of America and the Socialist Workers party.you saw how popular socialism was in russia.i think its the perfect government for the USA.and how the fuck did you get 395 posts raoul,or alex or whatever u wanna be called.then again,i havent been on here for like 2 months now.i suck

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"If you can take my bag from my kung-fu grip, you can have it, otherwise, step off, bitch."

[BiTeSiZe]

I know it sounds bad, but I don't like the gov't anymore. I love america, but i don't like the people who run it. So i will let others vote for who represents us, I will just sit back and know that no matter how bad the pres, he only has so much power. The best thing about our country is that the power is spread out. Imagine Bush the King, and no matter what he said it went. Or Gore, america would be in trouble...lol. =)

[Will]

Having taveled a bit, I can tell you that when I return to the good ol USA, every time I feel like getting down and kissing the ground. (Sorry, other country dudes) I like England a tremendous amount. Camada is beautiful. Australia is almost as nice, but more fum. There are great places, but man let me tell you there is no place like the good ol' screwed up, knock down drag out USA. We have it sooooo good here, you can't imagine. The chance to take nothing and turn it into a fortune, Comeon, where else? When a bum, high school drop out like me can earn a shit pot full of money based on balls alone (I got no brains really) then things are possible here that are not anywhere else. We can bitch about our government and even change it, if enough of us want to. We don't want war, although somebody sure does and they make us wage it on other people and that sucks, but we can change it. How many countries can you think of where you couldn't change shit? Yeah! Keep thinking, there's a lot more. This country isn't perfect by a long shot, but there's more of a chance to make it nearly so, here, than anywhere else on this planet. We have the system. Sure some people here are stupid and unaware, like they're NOT in France and Spain and Russia.

Comeon, if we get stuck with either Gore or Bush and they screw it up too badly, they're gone before they know it. Witness George Sr. Witness Jimmy Carter, witness Gerald Ford. I don't care that much who wins. If I could trade and give the Presidency to the one I don't want to have it and simply know that a few Americans woke up and realized that whoever is the Prez. works for us and not the other way around and started calling him on it, I'd take that trade any old day. The 800 or so chewers right here could be an incredible influence on this country and its policies, if they were simply unified and if they realized that the other chewers weren't the enemy. Its those that keep us all fighting we need to see clearly. Those who continually keep it in our faces, Is OJ guilty or not? Did Bush win or did he steal it? Are unions bad or good? More taxes for the rich or less? Feed the homeless or let em suffer? People! Wake up. Its midnight and your coach is now a pumpkin. If you want to get home you will have to walk there. Or you can sit here and argue with the mice over who is responsible and you'll never get home again. Sorry, I was ranting, wasn't I?


[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2000).]

[raoul duke]

DJ. What you jiving about, honky?

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and a voice was screaming: Holy Jesus! What are these damn animals

[DJEvil]

A'right. STOP. Collaborate and listen
Ice is back with a brand new invention
Somethin that grabs a hold of me tightly...

...Oh, you meant DJ Dylan...Sorry...

[Mr. Jingles]

For all you Nader fans...one thing (and i hope this has not been touched on in the past posts). If he REALLY cared that much about the enviroment (one of the big platforms he runs on) would he put the enviroment (or even risk it) into G W. Bush's and Chaney's hands? Both oil men who believe we should drill for oil in Alaska.

I dont mind the guy..but he has no LEADERSHIP skills (that he has shown to my knowledge)...which in my mind would make him an incompetent president. Im not saying Gore is much better...but I still dont think he is that bad a guy...

[Coyote]

...and the "founding fathers" weren't exactly young & spry...well, maybe spry, in Jefferson's case.

[lamotta]

Briefly considered voting for Nader - for about two seconds. The fact that he didn't endorse Gore in the waning days of the election shows that he doesn't give a shit about Bush, Jr. drilling in Alaska and re-introducing Reaganomics to this country.

Too bad his sheep couldn't come to this realization until now, when its too late. BAAAAAH

[Clarence Boddicker]

Man you people are overly worried about Bush. He has stated he will be a uniter, not a divider. He will be moderate and not have an arrogant war policy.He will probably be a one-termer and be out in 4 years anyway. Could he really be declared winner in a questionable election again?

PS, 'The Grinch' will be the best movie ever.

Sorry, just having fun with the ancient threads.

[Brad Millette]

Jesus, that posting time error is really getting out of whack now.

[TrebleInTrouble]

wow, rereading that is kind of scary, knowing what we know now, especially about all the election fraud that went on, both in 2000 and 2004, and how george has run the country.

[Freedom = $1.05]

Wow, this thread is a gem.

[yt]

I'm seriously mystified as to how there's not total unmitigated rage at what these criminals have done and continue to do, from the stolen elections onward. And I include the enabler democrats in that as well. Maybe it's like that British guy says in Sicko, something about how in France the government is afraid of the people, whereas in America the people are afraid of the government, and the way they're kept that way is through fear and debt. Pretty succinct ya ask me.

[Robert Hill]

I'm seriously mystified as to how there's not total unmitigated rage at what these criminals have done and continue to do, from the stolen elections onward. And I include the enabler democrats in that as well. Maybe it's like that British guy says in Sicko, something about how in France the government is afraid of the people, whereas in America the people are afraid of the government, and the way they're kept that way is through fear and debt. Pretty succinct ya ask me.


I don't think the people are scared of the government. I think it just what the people expect from the government. It like the old song says the new boss is the same as the old boss. I personally think that the whole system is rotten, and a lot of people think that way. Really what is the big difference between the Dems and the Reps?

[Whirlybird]

Really what is the big difference between the Dems and the Reps?

Simple: One party is corrupt(Dems), while the other is both corrupt and delusional(Reps). Great fucking democracy we have huh?

[Drew S.]

I'm seriously mystified as to how there's not total unmitigated rage at what these criminals have done and continue to do, from the stolen elections onward. And I include the enabler democrats in that as well. Maybe it's like that British guy says in Sicko, something about how in France the government is afraid of the people, whereas in America the people are afraid of the government, and the way they're kept that way is through fear and debt. Pretty succinct ya ask me.

I don't think it's so much that Americans are afraid of the government so much as we just don't give a shit.

When the wiretapping story broke, how many times did we hear "It won't effect me. I don't have anything to hide." It didn't matter that civil rights had been shit on, because it doesn't affect them. 99% of people aren't going to say anything overtly incriminating over the phone so they don't give a shit that they've just lost another right to privacy.

Same thing with habeus corpus being suspended. They overwhelming majority of people in this country will never face trial, so why should they care that due process has been fucked?

It's total apathy, and in many ways that's much more dangerous that fear. With fear, people eventually get tired of being scared and stand up and do something about it. With apathy, nothing happens. They can keep us placated and we don't care, and as of right now our desires and wants are stupidly simplistic. As long as we can keep hearing about Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and stuffing our faces full of transfat in our bland suburban homes, why should we care that the foundations of this country are eroding at an alarming rate?

It's sickening, but it's the way things are. We've been lured into a sense of complacency so deep that I dare say nothing short of a total invasion or collapse of government will get us out of it.

[Chavez]

I'm seriously mystified as to how there's not total unmitigated rage at what these criminals have done and continue to do, from the stolen elections onward. And I include the enabler democrats in that as well. Maybe it's like that British guy says in Sicko, something about how in France the government is afraid of the people, whereas in America the people are afraid of the government, and the way they're kept that way is through fear and debt. Pretty succinct ya ask me.


I'm not truly scared of the government, it's just your total fucking umitigated rage going nowhere because too many other people have their heads up their asses gets fucking frustrating. Then boring. I am finding better ways to spend my time, and merely telling those conservos who gripe that I have the government they deserve.

[JWFokker]

Until some seriously bad shit happens to force a reform, our country will continue to feel the indirect control of corporate America on our legislature. Our government has been turned into a money making machine for the rich and powerful, and unfortunately the people who have the power to change this are in the pocket of the corporations who finance their campaigns, so it's not at all in their interest to change the system.